User talk:JBS66

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Trying to merge [11 January 2014]

Hello Jennifer ! I have a problem with this ! Please can you make something ? Cleanup or unmerge ? Thank you ! I don't "work" about theses families, but I found ... "doublons" (duplicate records) ! Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 09:44, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


Yes, please demonstrate sources and citations on one of my files so I can learn to do it. Many thanks for your help.

EKBDVA--EKBDVA 22:46, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The difference between Sources and Citations [19 January 2014]

I am still not clear on the difference between a source (I know it is global) and a citation. As an example: why is the Census year 1880 not the source; and the information about the city, county, state, and persons counted not the citation? An example would help clear it up for me.

Many thanks EKBDVA--EKBDVA 20:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Along the same line, I've been wondering about the distinction between 'source' and 'citation'. Is there something in the Help section that spells out the distinction between recording a source and recording a citation? --janiejac 18:02, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
If what is being referred to is the drop down list of Citation, Source and MySource, it basically tells where the source is described...
Source means you are creating a source reference to a work already described by a page of type Source. Source pages are ways of centralizing the creation of a bibliographic entry on an object that is likely to be used by many people. Its provides a centralized place where people can find information on what the object contains, locating the object, and have discussions about its merits and weaknesses.
MySource is for sources described by a MySource page, which is a special form of Source page, but meant for objects that are not publicly available, such as a family Bible or other documents that other researchers are unlikely to be able to get access to, because they are privately held. Therefore, usually, the creator is about the only person able to provide input. It is desirable to provide transcripts of such documents on the MySource page if possible, or links, etc.
Citations are used when there is no source page of any kind. Citation means you are writing the citation free-hand basically, which I rarely do. But occasionally, say for books like the history of pottery that are not likely to ever be cited by anyone else, except that it happens to give some information on one person of interest. I try to create the free-hand citation so that it looks very close to the standard citation for a Source page on books. If the book is a source of history or genealogy or biography or other subject likely to give genealogical information, and therefore likely to be used by some other researcher, and no source page exists, then, in that case, I don't use a Citation, I create a Source page and then use Source. I only use Citation when I feel it would probably be a waste to create a Source page. Unlike the other two types, no link is created to any type of descriptive page describing the object, so the citation you type in should contain all the information needed to identify and find the source object, i.e., more a less a full bibliographic entry, not just a title.
Hope that helps a little. --Jrich 19:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for trying Jrich, but that didn't help me much. But I plan to copy it and save so I can refer back to it. EKBDVA--EKBDVA 19:52, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but it did help me! I keep seeing others use citation where I use source and I couldn't figure out the difference. For an example see bottom of Person:Hope Washburn (1). From your description, it looks to me like the author of the citations could have used sources instead and still put the extra info in the text window. Hmm but these citations are blue links to a source. So maybe I'm still confused. --janiejac 20:32, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

On Hope Washburn, all the citations are of type Source. So they all contain links to the appropriate Source page. If the field labeled Source is set to "Source", as all the ones on Hope Washburn are, the title field will be expected to match the name of an existing Source page. It it does, it is blue to show you can click on the link to see the Source page, which should give additional general information about the source. If a matching Source page doesn't exist, the link is red to show it is a broken link.
When you know there is no Source page, but you want to identify where you got your information anyway, you set the Source field to "Citation". Then the title field is free-form and there does not need to be any matching Source page. The title is not blue because it is not a link. I can't find any good examples on the spur of the moment, but see Person:Mary Unknown (689). It has a source titled "The Brewster Book". The title is not a link. There is no source page for the Brewster Book (probably should be). The link that is there was given in the page number field and goes to an outside website (currently it is broken).
It appears though that this wasn't the original question. The only thing I see that is any kind of specific question: "why is the Census year 1880 not the source; and the information about the city, county, state, and persons counted not the citation?" Which sounds like why is the US Census cited the way it is? The answer to that is because that is the way the system was set up. It was thought that there should be a separate Source page for each county within a census. Presumably this was done because it was thought discussions would might occur at the county level and so there needed to be a page for each one (I'm guessing here)? So when you create a Source citation, in order to provide a link to the appropriate Source page, you must identify the census down to the county level. It sounds like you, as I do in my home system, treat each census as a single source (common form, common sponsoring organization, just a different page from a single, coherent work, etc.) I don't know the exact reasoning behind going down to the county level, may not agree with it, but I recognize that it was done in a much bigger framework than my personal research has exposed me too, including considering censuses of different countries, slave and free censuses, state censuses, counties disappearing and being created, censuses getting lost or burned, etc., etc. Actually, my preference would be to have a dedicated citation type just for US census that would ensure census citations were built consistently, and even perhaps, someday, could be enhanced to help users link to the actual scanned image in or something similar. But for now, it is what it is. --Jrich 21:49, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Mary A. Drinkwater death date [22 January 2014]

It looks like someone edited the source after I changed it from "my source" to "Source". How does it look now? I made some edits too.

EKBDVA--EKBDVA 20:45, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Looks good! You wrote the "marriage document was also found with this pension file", so you can use this source on the family page for Family:Humphrey Drinkwater and Mary Taylor (1) to document their marriage. --Jennifer (JBS66) 20:58, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia Template change [28 January 2014]

Hi Jennifer, I noticed you updated the page of Vincent Lombardi. With your change, will the wikipedia content populate on his Person Page on the next refresh? I was hoping that it would populate on his page prior to this Friday (I was going to put him as the Featured Page on Friday through the Superbowl). Otherwise, I'll manually add some of his wikipedia content on Friday....

Let me know.

Thanks and have a great week,

Jim:)--Delijim 23:21, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Jim, according to JRM, the auto update of the WP templates hasn't been working properly lately. He went ahead and created the template pages and brought over the text from WP. Also, see his post below about his other additions. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:27, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Lombardi Page [28 January 2014]

I've sort of tossed the page together with a few WR goodies - place page for the Cemetery, GIS coordinates for the burial lot within the cemetery, and references to a number of WP pages associated with education and occupation events - but I'm most definitely not an expert here. Someone should review my work, and we should definitely get census records in where we can. --jrm03063 17:36, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for the updates:) I'll try to add a few records before I post it sometime tomorrow or Thursday. Thought it might be nice to have WeRelate get into the Super Bowl "hype", too... :)

Best regards,


Pietje Annes (Mug) (Zondervan) date of death [28 January 2014]

Hello Jenifer,

Regarding, Pietje Annes Mug Zondervan

death shown as; d.26 APR 1803 Sint Jacobiparochie, Het Bildt, Friesland, Netherlands

What is the original source of this date of death?

According to the inventory of Tresoar, registration of death (burial) in St. Jacobieparochie is only available in the DTB 118, Het Bildt - Burgerlijk book after 1806.

Het Bildt - Hervormde gemeente - St. Jacobiparochie 122. Doopboek, 1748-1812. Indices: DTB nr. 130c. 123. Trouwboek, 1650-1772. Indices: DTB nrs. 130a en 130b. 124. Lidmatenboek, 1760-1850.

     Index: DTB nr. 130e.
     N.B. Zie ook: Copie elders 6164 op de studiezaal.

Het Bildt - Burgerlijk 116-117.

     Registers van afkondiging en bevestiging van huwelijken 
     door het Gerecht, 1607-1717.
     Indices: DTB 130a en 130b.
     116. 1607-1640
     117. 1642-1717

118. Register van overledenen, 1806-1811.

     Index: DTB nr. 1025d.--John Terpstra 18:56, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi John, I didn't add the date of death for Person:Pietje Zondervan (4), another user Cabrioot did. I'll leave a message on Pietje's talk page regarding your question. Please go to Pietje's page and click "Watch" from the menu on the left so that you can be notified of his answer. --Jennifer (JBS66) 19:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Jennifer, I will watch for a reply.--John Terpstra 21:21, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

A GEDCOM we might want to consider removing [15 February 2014]

I ran across a user who loaded a couple of GEDCOMs in 2008-2009 that, at least from the parts I looked at, were heavily influenced by OneWorldTree, which made a real mess of the data (e.g., James Board married his own mother, Thomas Stewart was the son of parents married 300 years before he was born and died in the US 30 years before he was in a census in Scotland). I started trying to find better data, and added citations to a couple of marriages in the Board family, but trying to straighten out this data appears to be more trouble than it is worth (it hasn't been easy finding reliable sources online). Can we get these GEDCOMs removed (other than where they merge with pages other users are watching)? I "unwatched" the couple of pages I updated so that they are not left as orphans (it doesn't bother me if my small contribution of adding dates and sources is deleted).

This data represents the worst of what OneWorldTree did to the genealogy world, and I'd hate to have people say that WeRelate is an unreliable site (or worse, that it is junk) because it contains this kind of garbage.--DataAnalyst 01:58, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

We talked about this during the Overview Committee meeting last Sunday. Dallan is going to create a report of users who uploaded a GEDCOM in 2007 (prior to WR's data validation) and have not come back to edit a page since. Then, he'd like to have a small team of users review the contributions of those users to determine if their trees should be removed from WR. This particular file was uploaded later, maybe we can add it to the list of considerations when Dallan creates the report (I will let you know when he does that).
I agree it is detrimental to WR's image to contain such common error-filled "junk". Are you interested in being a part of that team to review files? Also, if there are other users watching this page that are interested, please don't hesitate to respond :) --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:07, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Excuse my jumping into the thread - I would be interested in being part of that effort. May I presume that Dallan's report will indicate, not only the antiquity of any such GEDCOM, but also the implications of removal? (that is, pages that are not protected by virtue of other users as watchers?).
While I'm generally in support of such removal efforts, at times I've found that such GEDCOMs contain valid connections between better pieces of content. I would like the opportunity to look for and perhaps protect such locations, before removal goes forward.
Further, certainly for any GEDCOM that contains medieval content, I would ask that we solicit review from Werebear, who has been a strong contributor out there over the last year (or more - my sense of time is questionable...). --jrm03063 16:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
I welcome you jumping into this thread! To my knowledge, his report will include the username and fit the criteria of 'they uploaded a GEDCOM in 2007' and 'have not edited since'. This will undoubtedly miss a few GEDCOMS uploaded then (say, if the user came back to leave a message on a talk page). I will message Dallan with your comments to see if he can make further refinements. --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
I would be willing to help with the review, as long as it is understood that it may take some (elapsed) time. I wonder if we might be best served by having at least 2 reviewers agree before we remove a GEDCOM - one could do the analysis and point out the problems and the other could do a "sanity check" to make sure that negative implications of removal were not overlooked.
We'll need a way to traverse the GEDCOMs once they are identified - I am not sure I know a reliable way to do that other than viewing someone's tree.
I agree about the medieval space - it was a mess a few years ago and a lot more work to correct than create new, but we wouldn't want to lose anything that has been corrected (or confirmed and that links trees together). If medieval records come up, I can help in the review, but I'd rather focus on more recent dates first.--DataAnalyst 23:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

What are the qualifications to help with such a review? Thx, Ron--woepwoep 18:09, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I will presume that the only real qualifications are interest and willingness to review and offer your perspective.
I would be inclined to approach this as an exercise in triage - where any given GEDCOM will fall into one of three categories - Keep entirely, Drop entirely, or drop in part/keep in part. The quickest and most important step is probably to identify the first two - and the drop entirely cases are easy for Dallan to process. We could move through the remainder more as time permits. --jrm03063 15:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree with JRM. To add a little back in 2007, WeRelate allowed GEDCOM upload, but had no data validation checks to keep out the "junk". It would be a matter of looking at the contributions of users such as this one or this one. Do they have a large number of living people, are there impossible family relationships (like children born before parents), are the only sources to OneWorldTree... I'm sure that DataAnalyst and JRM have other criteria too. We're trying to remove the obvious stuff that when uploaded today, would not be accepted. I almost wish we could somehow run these trees through the GEDCOM uploader to save having to randomly scan them. --Jennifer (JBS66) 20:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
If I go to My Relate > Trees, I can see and download any GEDCOMs I uploaded. Would Dallan not be able to give someone access to be able to see and download the GEDCOMs that others have uploaded? If so (and assuming the site was tracking uploaded GEDCOMs as far back as 2007), then we could upload them again and run them through the GEDCOM editor (without, of course, doing the final submit).--DataAnalyst 19:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Don't forget - GEDCOMs of that age are apt to have been worked quite a bit around the edges at least. If for no other reason than to merge them with other content. Going back to the original GEDCOMs means repeating all that. Unless you're looking at something that's devoid of overlap - a re-upload is apt to be quite inefficient - and if it's devoid of overlap at this stage - why would we be keeping it? Let's see what Dallan reports out and what we learn - I'm pretty fast at deleting individual pages - and I can even write some code that would let us mark some sections for delete and analyze whether they were contiguous before deleting them. --jrm03063 20:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

The report is now available at WeRelate:Old GEDCOMs. I like the idea of picturing this as 'triage'. How about we continue discussions on this talk page and be sure to watch that page if you are interested in participating in this project. --Jennifer (JBS66) 16:37, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Um, wow - that's a lot to look at. I'm pretty obsessive, but this is going to take some time... --jrm03063 22:20, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

How to find out which one is true? [13 feb 2014]

hi Jennifer,

pls see Person:Hendrina_Heesen_(1) i found two records, what do they mean? is the first one birth and the second one Doop ?

thx, R--woepwoep 08:40, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ron, they are both true :) My feeling is the first doop in 1698 is for a Hendrina that died before 30 Oct 1701. Then, Hendrina #2 was baptized in 1701. The links I posted here point to the actual scans for each baptism. However, for me, these links don't work in Chrome (but do in Firefox) --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:53, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

thx ! R--woepwoep 08:52, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

ps i use Chrome too, blank screen, clicking on Download PDF and then opening the PDF works for me.

Correct displaying of an image [20 February 2014]

Hello Jennifer ! Please, what is wrong ? ... Person:Armand Savard (1) --> The image does exist : Image:Armand Savard, fils de François.JPG An other example : Person:Margaret Orr (12) - Thank you ! Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 08:23, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

At first, I was going to suggest changing the ç to c - but that does not explain the problem with Image:Group garden shot‏.jpg... hmmm - I will ask Dallan about this. Thank you for telling me about the problem. --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:28, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
And Person:Francois Savard (3) ... with Image:François Savard, fils de Louis.JPG - Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 14:49, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

A relatively new user created a page for a member of a family of interest to me; he references an image which does not appear on the page. Could it be the same problem? Person:Clarence Ritsema (2). (I did not see an image in his recent uploads. So it might be a different problem.) --Pkeegstra 13:46, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

That appears to be a different problem. For the Ritsema page, the user did not upload a photo, but still tried to reference one on that page. I think you could delete the image reference with a summary that no corresponding photo was uploaded. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:50, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
OK, that makes sense. I think he intended a screenshot of the obituary. So I would go ahead and do that, if it weren't for the copyright implications. Perhaps that's what I'll say. --Pkeegstra 14:23, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

can it be related to an error in mediawiki ? 16:59, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Dallan has fixed this bug. In each case, the problem was related to "special" characters (such as the ç in François). Now, when images are uploaded, the file names will be automatically converted to change characters like ç into c. The only fix for existing images with errors, however, is for the user to delete the image and re-upload it. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

re WeRelate:Old GEDCOMs [21 February 2014]

Hi Jennifer

Much as though getting rid of old GEDCOMs which are lacking in quality sounds like a worthwhile project, I don't feel I should get involved in a serious way.

As you know I am a bit of "geographical genealogist" and have been working on improving (hopefully) place pages for the past year and a half. Currently the location is Yorkshire, England, which could hold more places within it than any other state/province-equivalent in the world. Progress so far stands at about the 50% mark and I haven't lost my motivation yet.

When I need a break I look at "who links here" and start inspecting and correcting red-lettered places and reading other people's trees. That was how I found User:twestern yesterday. He/she knew about sources, but not how to add them. I had a feeling that if more research had been done some of the families found in the census would have been discarded. Because we can't see English bmd registrations without paying about $15 each for them it's difficult to back up census information with vitals. To do that for all branches of a family in the 19th century is a costly process.

With regard to the old GEDCOMs project, I feel I had better stay on the outside, but I know that if I come across a highly sus tree I can advise you. What are the next steps for those you have accumulated?

Regards, Pat --Goldenoldie 07:44, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Pat, the work you are doing with places pages is great, and I completely understand wanting to focus on your area of interest! The next steps... well, the initial list is just an automated report of users who fit a certain criteria. Next would be to analyze their trees to see if there are a lot of obvious problems (like living people, significant errors, etc). Then, we would propose to delete the troublesome trees. Users, if they wish, could reupload their files, but this time, there are data validation checks in place! --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:31, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Francis Cooke/Hester Mahieu [22 February 2014]

Hi Jennifer, I'm looking for what I think is a Dutch marriage record. Here's the clue I have:

The marriage at Leyden in 1603 is recorded in the "Kerkelijke Houwelijke", Liber E. Folio 69. The date isn't given but it was probably 30 June 1603. It reads (translated into English), "Francis Cooke, woolcomber, unmarried, from England, accompanied bu Philip De Veau and Raphael Roelandt, his acquintances, with Hester Mahieu, unmarried, from Canterbury in England, accompanied by Jennie Mahieu, her mother, and Jennie Mahieu, her sister."

Can you give me any hints on where I might look? :-)--Frank 03:18, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

The source cited on their family page, Source:MD, Vol. 27: 145-151. It includes images, including the specific page you mention, plus a detailed discussion of the date, etc. --Jrich 06:13, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I had a look at which has records of the DTB's. Franchoys Couck & Hester Mahieu's ondertrouw (marriage license) 4 Jul 1603 A scan of the certificate is here 069v I added a few notations below in brackets:

  • Plaats: Leiden
  • Datum ondertrouw: 04-07-1603 [date of marriage license 4 Jul 1603, not the marriage date]
  • Bron: Nederlands Hervormd Ondertrouw (1575-1795)
  • Bruidegom: Franchoys Couck
  • Plaats geboorte: Engelant [birth place: England]
  • Beroep: wolkammer [occupation: wool comber]
  • Bruid: Hester Mahieu
  • Plaats geboorte: Cantelberch Engelant [birth place: Canterbury, England]
  • Archiefnr: 1004
  • Inventarisnummer: 5
  • Inventaris beginjaar: 1602
  • Inventaris eindjaar: 1604
  • Folio: E - 069v
  • Opmerkingen: Getuigen bruidegom [bridegroom's witnesses]: Phillippe de Veau bekende - Raphael Roelandt bekende - Getuigen bruid [bride's witnesses]: Jenne Mahieu moeder - Jenne Mahieu zuster -

There are more scans available via, but finding the right one here would require a lot of patience and time! --Jennifer (JBS66) 12:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the great input. The scan was exactly what I was looking for. Do you all think it would be of interest to put it on the family page as an image? Don't want to clutter things up, but I personally find these old images to be of great interest. Just wish I could read them - Google Translate doesn't read cursive so well.. UPDATE: Exploring the site further, I'm not sure if using the image is ok. Looks like they charge for large images and other formats, but no mention is made of the web version. Since my Dutch is non-existent, thought I'd better ask if you know...--Frank 14:38, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I think these primary documents are of great interest to add to the page! I found the scans over at FamilySearch, so including a snippet of them here is ok. As far as reading them... these are especially challenging because they are in the old Dutch handwriting, not something I have experience with, unfortunately. Perhaps one of our Dutch users watching my talk page might jump in to assist :)
Here is a copy of the Huwelijksafkondigingen (marriage announcements) - same that is indexed above, and this appears to be the marriage record 141r, 20 July 1603 --Jennifer (JBS66) 16:36, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Have to admit I was wondering if the translation in my original message to you was accurate so a "read" on that would be great if it happens at some point. I'd also like to include your notations with the image if ok with you. I think they help us English speakers out immensely.--Frank 16:51, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. I don't mind you including the notations. Much of what was included in the English text above is reflected in the Leiden index. The 'unmarried' comes from the words jongman and jongedochter in both the marriage and marriage announcement. The marriage record may be pretty similar to the announcements, something like "Franchoijs Couck wolkammer jongman uijt Engelant met Hester Mahieu jongedochter van Cantelberch in Engelant" --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:08, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Bad marriage date [28 February 2014]

Hello Jennifer ! Please see this record : Person:John McMillan (4) ... first marriage 1858, death Jan 1901 and second marriage Aug 1903. What can we do ? Leave a message on the talk page of the contributor (his last edit = 8 January 2009) ? Add a "note in red" saying "bad date" ont the record ? Simply delete this date ? - Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 08:47, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

The first wife died 1889 so one relatively safe approach is to change it to after 1889. --Jrich 15:15, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
You could also use the Template:Questionable to mark the page as inaccurate (along with a description of the problem). The user who added the page will be notified and it will also serve as a notice to future readers of the page. --Jennifer (JBS66) 16:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

An other problem [28 February 2014]

Jennifer ! I want to clean up this record  : Other? 01 AUG 2004 Record Change
What can we do ? ... Parents to create ? but this family Thomas Watts and Jessie Dent (6) was deleted by an other contributor who gave no reason - Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 17:08, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Users are able to delete their trees, as long as the pages have no other watchers. In Elsie's case, there are two watchers, so the page was kept. A user with Admin rights can undelete the parents' pages, but that really opens up more problems because there are more ancestors and siblings who would be red-linked. I think it's better to edit Elsie's page and remove the red-linked parents (you could put their names into the text field for future researchers). --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Ancestral File Number [2 March 2014]

Hello Jennifer ! I try to clean up all records with "Other : Record change ...". I saw many records with this tag "Ancestral File Number" that I have sometimes deleted ! I discover that it can be (but not always) a reference with the site of the Mormons ! I have 2 questions :

  1. Is it a credible reference ?
  2. If it is a reference, why is it given in WR among the list of the "events/facts" ? For me, it is not an "event" for the person ! (I found no explanation in the help pages.)

Thank you ! Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 15:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

We have also this tag in the list : "Reference Number" ... - Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 16:14, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
It is in the list because it is in the list of tags in the GEDCOM specification so must be handled to import GEDCOMs. No, not credible: they communicate no source information and different AFNs often contradict. It is usually just a snapshot of some unknown person's research. --Jrich 16:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Thank you ! So I can continue to destroy these lines, I suppose. Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 17:06, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Many people do. The one caveat I can think of is that they do document where data comes from, so until better sources are provided, they serve some purpose. --Jrich 17:11, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
But do they serve enough of a purpose that we shouldn't simply write a BOT that goes through and wipes them away systematically? Along with any reference to Ancestral file as a source? Further "Record Change..."? I'm glad to see this discussion - I wasn't ever quite sure what to make of AFNs. But it might be better to open a slightly wider discussion of non-information that we want to purge on sight. This sort of thing is often more safely done by software... --jrm03063 18:15, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
PS - I would add the "Reference Number" tag to the above purge-on-sight list... --jrm03063 18:17, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
PPS - I would also note that many AFN facts originally got loaded as type "Other", with Ancestral File Number in the description, and the number landing in the Place field. Software to identify and purge AFNs should recognize both forms. --jrm03063 18:19, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
The Reference Numbers/RINs and UIDs are specific to a person's genealogy software and should be deleted on sight. They don't serve a purpose to a wider audience, and these are no longer imported with GEDCOMs. Regarding the AFNs, there has been talk, such as JRich said above, they serve a purpose to identify questionable data, describe where the data came from, and can be retained until a better source is added. There is a line on Help:Merging pages that says "Do not keep user ID numbers, reference numbers, and other single-user identifiers of the information. (But do keep Ancestral File numbers or other universal ID numbers, as they can be used to identify duplicates or find that individual in the AF.)". I still think that when a better source is found, they should be ditched :) --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:25, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I remember the line you refer to, which is why I asked whether they serve enough of a purpose. It's been years since an AFN helped me find a duplicate, so I'm pretty sure that benefit has run its course. These items certainly don't enhance our credibility. So I'm asking a comparative question - are the benefits of keeping such items outweighed by the benefits of getting rid of all of them reliably, promptly, and completely? --jrm03063 21:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Stupid link to a village in Aisne (France) [4 March 2014]

Hello, Jennifer ! Please see my message here ---> Why Place:Vailly-sur-Aisne, Aisne, France ---> problem with the automatic gedcom import ? Two months ago I found an other "stupid link" for plenty of records ... but I don't know more exactly what was this "wrong place" ! Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 07:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

You are right, those are stupid links :) Here are the pages that link to Vailly-sur-Aisne - it seems most of them are from the same GEDCOM import. If you want to fix them, begin with the Person pages (because most of the Family pages will disappear from the list when you fix the people). I would suggest deleting the (#)Photo. text because it is meaningless. --Jennifer (JBS66) 12:08, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

when names change in writing, what name to use when creating a person record? [7 March 2014]

hi Jennifer,

i am working on Person:Hinnerse_Nieuwenhuis_(1) her name is written in at least four different variations.

now i wonder what name to use as the WR official name? (1) her name at birth? (2) her name at death? (3) her name as a mother of the bride or groom?

do you have a standard way of working? thx, Ron--woepwoep 17:05, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

What I tend to do is use their birth surname if born after 1811 and their death surname if they were born without a surname name and died with a surname. If both of those don't fit - I use the surname most often used during their lifetime. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:43, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Comparing 2 Reitsma-Bakker families [17 March 2014]

Hi, I was working on the Duplicate Families backlog, and encountered this comparison of 2 Reitsma-Bakker families. It seems you uploaded all the people involved a few years ago (if I have read the history correctly). The one major relevant change not done by you was that Person:Jitske Reitsma (4) was placed as a child into the family Family:Liebe Reitsma and Idske Bakker (1), which was done by User:Kdrost. Kdrost did not remove Jitske from Family:Liebe Reitsma and Jelske Bakker (1) so Jitske has two sets of parents.

It may be that these two families are duplicates of each other and should be merged. But maybe Person:Idske Bakker (2) is distinct from Person:Jelske Bakker (2), and there are two distinct marriages, in which case I or someone should mark them "nomerge". I expect that you will have some insight into the situation and can indicate how this should be fixed. Thanks. 05:53, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

In the Alle Friezen (marriage record) the name of Idske Bakker is wrongry mentioned as Jetske Bakker. In the scan her name is Idske. Today I send a mail to Alle Friezen about this mistake. I think we can remove the name Jelske in werelate.

--paulsnip 10:16, 16 March 2014 (UTC) Paul Snip

It looks like User:Ekjansen has merged these families so it should be all set know. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:30, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Eerbeek part of Brummen? [17 mrt 2014]

hi Jennifer,

in Person the town of Eerbeek is gemeente Brummen (1871) should Place be renamed?

thx, R--woepwoep 09:21, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I renamed Place:Eerbeek, Brummen, Gelderland, Netherlands to add the gemeente. Many of WR's NL place pages have been renamed to add the gemeente as it was around 1900 (especially for Friesland, Overijssel, and South Holland). The rest of the county still needs a little work... --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:21, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

thx !--woepwoep 11:49, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Researching Smeryczanski for my family tree [21 March 2014]


I am looking for some information about my family history. Like mnay of these journies I have arrived here with little information after many relatives have passed. So I dont know much. My search in Google has lead me to this web site and your page. I am curious what infomation you may have found.

Here is what I know. My Grandmother was married to a Michael Smeryczanski and had my dad. Apparently thier relationship was brief and he left. My grandmother soon remarried and never told my dad that the man who raised him was not his father. Well, not until he graduated high school and she was worried that he may be in trouble with the draft if they ever called his name.

What I do know about this lineage is that Michael's parents were probably John and Ann(a) and he had siblings possibly Mary, Joesph, Bernard and Catherine. Michael was born in 1926(7) here in the US but his parents were born elswhere and came through Ellis Island as kids.

I would like to know more about the origins of this part of my family. I see that your records show a Jan (John) that was born in Austria. This seems an unusual name for an Austrian. But I may not know much.

Any info you could share I would greatly appreciate.


Allison Hurd--Urania8 05:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Ellis records show this:

First Name:	Jan
Last Name:	Smericzanski
Ethnicity:	Austria, Polish
Last Place of Residence:	Czernowitz, Austria
Date of Arrival:	Jun 10, 1910
Age at Arrival:  27y    Gender:  M    Marital Status:  M  
Ship of Travel:	Pennsylvania
Port of Departure:	Hamburg
Manifest Line Number:	0029

woepwoep 06:23, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much. We have had some issues with the spelling. Even my grandmother completely misspelled it. Eventually my paternal grandfather (Jan/John would have been HIS grandfather) changed it to Shayne. This matches up with enough of the information that I have. Does that make him ethnically Austrian? Maybe you know? Thanks again!--Urania8 05:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

hi Allison, the Ellis record shows the last place of residence is Czernowitz. In 1910 Czernowitz was a part of
I found a nice article about this city
Austrian element should be interpreted in wide sense of the word as it included not only Austrians or Germans, but also the German-speaking society. Those people moved here from the whole Austrian Empire: Bohemia, Moravia (Czech Republic), Trieste or Hungary. This turned a provincial town of Bukovyna into the farthest eastern outpost of the Austrian Empire.
The Ellis record shows Polish as the nationality; indeed many Polish people have Jan as their first name. see for example

The Jan that came to the U.S. in 1910 is Person:Jan Smereczanski (1). The Passenger List shows that his wife was Weronika and that his destination was his brother Josef (who I believe may be my great grandfather).

The name for my Smereczanski line changed a lot in the U.S. There was Sherman, Shermansky, Hoffman, Delgran, Clements, Smoren...

I have a few other lines on WR as well that I've not yet connected to my family.. There is another branch that I haven't found a connection with, nor have I entered them into WeRelate. They settled in Salem, MA and information about them can be found here.

I would love to be able to create pages here on WeRelate for your Smereczanski branch (note WeRelate only allows pages to be created for non-living individuals). Where in the U.S. did Michael Smeryczanski live? Do you have any more information about his possible siblings? --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:47, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Gaanderen part of Doetinchem? [20 mrt 2014]

hi Jennifer,

i am adding someone in Gaanderen, which i believe is a part of gemeente Doetinchem or Ambt Doetinchem. can you help ? according to Gaanderen was Ambt Doetinchem in 1900

thx, Ron--woepwoep 13:28, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Done, I renamed the place page to Place:Gaanderen, Ambt Doetinchem, Gelderland, Netherlands. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

thx ! R--woepwoep 15:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

moving persons and families between trees [24 March 2014]

hi Jennifer,

i came up with the idea to have my one - default - tree split up into eight, one for each of my great-grandparents. how do i move persons and families between trees?

thx, Ron--woepwoep 08:42, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm... the difficult way would be to change the tree for each person. You can add a person and their ancestors to a new tree, though I've not tried this method myself. If you go to one of your great-grandparents, then click on Trees, there is a section called "Include relatives" where you can add ancestors and/or descendants for a specified number of generations. I'm not actually sure if this adds just Person pages, or Family pages as well. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:26, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand [25 March 2014]

Hello, Jennifer ! Something wrong with/from me here ? - Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 17:01, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Bonjour Marc! I see nothing wrong with your edits. Some users don't 100% understand the "collaborative" nature of a wiki. I looked at a few edit you made to this users' pages: Malcolm Valance you fixed an incorrect red-linked place "killed in action" and moved it to the description field. You also removed duplicate, unnecessary text from the page. You fixed Person:Hartley Edelsten (2) to fix the "killed in action" red-links. This is all considered acceptable cleanup work. I also left my response/opinion on your talk page.
The only suggestion I have is that you mark these cleanup edits as "minor". As long as you are not changing the information on the page (ie, moving text from the place field to the desc. field is not changing information), then you can mark these as "this is a minor edit". If you change, say, a birth date, then I wouldn't mark it as minor :) --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:17, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
OK ! Thank you ! Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 17:26, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Place:Mossel (Bronckhorst) [27 mrt 2014]

hi Jennifer, can you help me out?

person died in Mossel(Bronckhorst)

which gemeente was this? probably Ruurlo ?

Mossel see

thx, Ron--woepwoep 06:42, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Woepwoep/Ron, Engelbart Severt (1) is volgens de akte overleden in Vorden. De akte (Die je hebt vermeld) werd opgemaakt in Ruurlo omdat dat de woonplaats was van Engelbart Severt (1). Op de akte staat ook overleden in andere gemeente. Het is regel dat ook in de plaats van overlijden een akte wordt opgemaakt.--Lidewij 09:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
(Woepwoep, Engelbart Severt (1) according to the deed deceased Vorden. The deed (which you mentioned) was prepared in Ruurlo because that was the residence of Engelbart Severt (1). The instrument is also mentioned "deceased in another town." It is a rule that the place of death, a deed is drawn up.)

ja, die akte vond ik even later. dank voor aanmaken hartelijke groeten, Ronald--woepwoep 09:32, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Graag gedaan.--Lidewij 09:33, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

double church marriage record [3 apr 2014]

hi Jennifer,

sorry to bother you again. can you pls check

i found two dates, in two different churches, of their marriage.

are both true?

thx, Ron--woepwoep 14:05, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

No bother at all! "getrouwd op den 4 Maij te Ligetenvoorde" - 4 April was the attestation date (or the start of the 3 proclamations, I think). See [1] and [2] --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:27, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
thx! the second marriage is in Ruurlo, while the attestation date is in Lichtenvoorde. how is this possible?
Ron, Jan Bockert z.v. Jan Bockert uit het Zuwent onder Ruurlo valt dus kerkelijk dus onder het Ruurlo. Terwijl Harmina Rooks d.v. Jan Rooks uit het Zuwent onder Ligtenvoorde, kerkelijk dus van onder Lichtenvoorden komt. Er loopt dus een kerkelijke grens door het gebied Zuwent. (dat wist je al) In allebei de kerken wordt er dus afgeroepen dat deze mensen gaan trouwen. Wanneer mensen pas zijn verhuist kan het zelfs nog in meer kerken worden afgeroepen.
Wat ik al eerder schreef, de transcripties van het Gelders zijn niet vlekkeloos. In het kerkboek van Ruurlo staat duidelijk dat ze in Lichtenvoorden zijn getrouwd --Lidewij 17:55, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Renaming a source page [3 April 2014]

Hi Jennifer,

Attempting to correct an error that I made in naming a source page. However the system will not allow me to rename this source page Source:Georgia, United States. Georgia, United States. Georgia, Death Index, 1933-1998. What am I doing wrong? --Beth 14:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

What are you wanting to rename the page to (Source:Georgia, United States. Georgia, Death Index, 1933-1998?) and what is the error you are getting? --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:46, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Nevermind Jennifer, I was able to rename the page this time. --Beth 16:06, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I seem to recall that bad things will still happen unless you move the "Georgia, United States" out of the "Title" line. As I understand it, for "government/church" type sources, the system tries to concatenate the "Places covered" and "Source" to form the title, and that is the title visible on pages even if one renames the source page itself. --pkeegstra 17:13, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

The profit ? [7 April 2014]

Jennifer what is the profit of this addition. Vorden remains to be found on page >3.

With this * example, it will be different. Groetjes, --Lidewij 19:03, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

It will be found on page 3 if we use [[Category:Gelderland, Netherlands|Vorden]] or [[Category:Gelderland, Netherlands]]. It's been my understanding that "sort keys" should be used when adding categories. Have we used * to sort provinces in other locations? --Jennifer (JBS66) 19:08, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Again. The addition of |Vorden , in [[Category:Gelderland, Netherlands]] on Category:Vorden, Gelderland, Netherlands , has no effect.
The top compartment only categories come. Category Vorden is not found quickly. It is now on page 4 but with more pages in the bottom box, page 10 can be. For the ordinary man who does not know, it's untraceable. --Lidewij 20:05, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
A table of contents needs to be added to jump to the desired letter. See it now. --Jrich 20:38, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

removing a marriage [8 April 2014]

Hi Jennifer,

I like to remove Kathlyntje as a spouse from Person:Bartholomeus_Vrooman_(7) because she appears as a duplicate mother for Hendrick Meese Vrooman and I see no proof for her existence elsewhere on the web. Can you help? I checked the help pages on site, but only found information on adding and editing persons, not delete.

The marriage of Bartholomeus Vrooman and Ariaantgen Hendrix appears in lots of places on the web, and even though I haven't found direct sources anywhere, I am inclined to keep them, because I assume that they appear in immigrant pedigrees, some of which may be added as a sort of source later.

I assume that I can remove Kathlyntje by editing the family, and then ask for Speedy Delete of the family page, but I don't know if that's the right way, so I ask you, because you did another delete today. I'm also ok with just unlinking Hendrick from the other family, if that looks better to you, but for that too, I can't find how to do that on the help pages.


--Enno 13:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

There are some details about this family here and a marriage record for Family:Bartholomeus Vrooman and Ariaantgen Hendrix (1) on Warmond Datum ondertrouw 11-04-1621 Mees Pietersz & Ariaentge Heyndrickx. You could mark both Family:Bartholomeus Vrooman and Kathlyntje Reboutz (1) and Person:Kathlyntje Reboutz (1) for speedy delete, noting a reason for the request. --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Forgot to mention that you can also remove Person:Hendrick Vrooman (7) from Family:Bartholomeus Vrooman and Kathlyntje Reboutz (1) which will correct the duplicate parent problem. --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:09, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the detail links. I'll try to add the source later tonight. I unlinked Bartholomeus from the marriage with Kathlyntje, and removed that family as parent from the son too, because he still had duplicate parents after the first change. Strange thing is that I thought that Bartholomeus Vrooman and Ariaantgen Hendrix had a handful of children, and suddenly I only see one. Hope I didn't kill too much of this family ... --Enno 16:45, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

request for help [10 apr 2014]


age (87) doesn't make sense. what happened in this family?

thx, R--woepwoep 21:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The death certificate definitely says 87 (first thought was that might have been a transcription error). Bene baptized in 1742 does seem like the most logical one to connect as the wife of Garrit Jan te Wopenreijs. Perhaps the person who declared her death didn't know her proper age? I found another resource for Lichtenvoorde, though you may already be aware of it. Some children of Bartelt te Keveler and Geertruid Gebbink were:

  • 1724 Hendrick
  • 1726 Willem
  • 1728 Hilleken
  • 1730 Garrit
  • 1732 Enneken
  • 1734 Engele
  • 1737 Janna
  • 1740 Garrit
  • 1742 Bene

Have you found it to be common that families from this area didn't follow strict Dutch familial naming patterns? --Jennifer (JBS66) 22:28, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


i added

because the name of the spouse is different, perhaps Bartelt remarried ?

i created a second Bartelt, perhaps they are the same person.

thx, Ron--woepwoep 14:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

there must have been two Bartelt / Bartholt / Kevel(a)er


Akke Vries-Bosma [12 April 2014]

Hello Jennifer, thank you so much for the ship manifest about the Bosma family, now it's all very clear to me, i have a ship manifest from Sietze Bosma and 3 daughters, they are sailing from Rotterdam on February the 18 th 1911. But I couldn't find Akke his wife and the other children, so perhaps i thought Akke and some children passed away here in the Netherlands, it could be isn't?

But find nothing at all, so a mystery for me, but now it's all clear, Akke and the rest of the family sailing later that year!

And for all this i was looking and find it, for the brother of Sietze Bosma, his name was Oene Bosma and married with Trijntje Kooistra and that's the family i've been looking for and i have a lot of Kooistra's already, because my mother in law is a Kooistra, i've did already a genealogical research for this family many years ago, but we discover that we had the wrong ancestors to start with, so now we are doing it all over again and perhaps better.

If you interest in my own website about families who are related to me namely Bos Family, i have also many relatives who's living into the States as well Canada and not forget in Australia to.

My web address is: [3]

With kind regards, Henk.--Butlerbob 15:25, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Bad and unexpected reactions ... 2 contributors [18 apr 2014]

Hello Jennifer ! Problem : Have you seen ? ---> [4] - Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 16:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Bonjour Marc, yes - I have seen this. It is correct that ALL CAPS is not recommended and should be changed when editing a page. However, every time a small edit is made like this, each person watching the page receives an email. If you edit dozens of a user's pages, they may become annoyed. Generally, when we clean up pages that other people are watching, it is done at the same time we add other information. For example, while editing a page to add a birth date, you change the surname from ALL CAPS to Mixed Case. Or, when a duplicate page is merged, you fixed a red-linked place. On the other hand, some users don't understand the value of collaborative genealogy, and become upset when their pages are edited in general. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
These reactions are miserably. Despite the above summary clearly states; “If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here”, it is always better to consult first consultation, before the work of others users is a fundamental change. This also includes capitalization at.
(I do not give a correct examples. After 7 years wikipedia, with many unpleasant discussions, I soured in my values and Iam no longer the person I was. (but I'll do my best)).
Maybe there should be clearly described on the edit page “ You deliver your work to the community.”

The pages that were created empty , must be put back again. I think most pages even edited by multiple/other users.
--Lidewij 17:03, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Once a user deletes their tree, it cannot be restored easily. A user with Admin rights can undelete the pages - but only one at at time. Currently, a user can delete pages they added when they are the only watcher. It sounds like it would be helpful to extend this - so that no user could delete a page when others have contributed to it (but are not watching), or those that are directly connected to Person/Family pages that another user is watching. We may also want to consider editing the Tree deletion message to suggest that users change their preferences to stop emails rather than deleting their entire tree. --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:38, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Jennifer ! It's necessary ! My wish is also (already said a few weeks or months ago) to preserve and always leave visible each message. The quality of contact between contributors is important ---> traceability, consultation always possible immediately. I do not think normal that contributors delete posts from others, even on their talk page ! Each post belongs to its author ! - Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 08:59, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Jeniffer, sadly I do not have the time and energy to following well, everything on this site. I'm just really shocked at this time. 12
I work on WeRelate not my own family. Even Mol family that I added the connection is there after 300 years. I work for the community. I spend time to add sources for persons or places good writing or cleaning the place space enz. The user who added that people can remove these people in one fell swoop. Also removed, my work for the community .
Normally only a moderator can delete pages in a community wiki. Moderator who checks the request is correct and removed when it is right. Users that pages of deceased persons emptying without anything wrong with it should be blocked. This is according to the wikipedia rules. First one day, again vandalism 3 days, and so on-1 week 2 weeks 1 month.
There is clearly
If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here.
Want to leave WeRelate, remove your link to your watch list. Your work stays behind, just like wikipedia
Jeniffer, you write that the people cannot be put back . It can always restore, only if names have been used again should be reappointed. There must also be determined if no doubles in the intermediate time have become. When restoring, you can choose which lines back. Lines can be omitted .
Lost work
From this family are just two children removed
I agree with Markus. History of the pages may not be removed. Vandalism can be cut from it. I'm a moderator on other wikis and know so little more what is possible. I'm 60+ and not a computer nerd, there is more that I do not know. Only the user pages, where other users did not contribute, these pages may be removed. (just like wikipedia).
Abilities skill with this problem. Groet,--Lidewij 11:13, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Family: Isaac DuBois and Neeltje Roosa [17 April 2014]

Hello- I have been researching my family genealogy for about 20 years and with all the added online sources now, I am still finding new discoveries everyday.

I found the "Werelate" website today but wanted to help clarify the information on the captioned family.

Neeltje Roosa is one of my great, great, great+++ grandmothers! born in 1689 to Heyman Aldertse Roosa and Anna Margriet Van Rosenvelt.

Dutch Reformed Church records from Kingston, New York show that on September 18, 1709 Johannes Cool and Neeltje Roosa baptized a daughter, Maroa Cool, with witnesses Willem Cool and Engeltje Rosa present.

A later Dutch Reformed Church record shows Banns of marriage on November 14, 1725 were made for Willem Dekker, widower of Rachel Van Auken, and Neeltje Roosa, widow of Johannes Cool.

In the Captioned Werelate family page, it shows our Neeltje Roosa married to Isaac DuBois in 1732. I believe that is a error. The woman who married Isaac DuBois was Neeltjen Roosa born in 1713 to Aldert Roosa and Aegjen Krom. Aldert was a brother of our Neeltje.

I added an edit to the Werelate page to clarify the distinction between Neeltje & Neeltjen.

I hope this is helpful to you.

Regards, Kathy--Ancestors1600 01:53, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi Kathy, I appreciate you catching this error! I'm not related to this family, but I'm watching their page because I've worked to clean up some of the errors with the early Dutch families on WeRelate. I fixed the wife of Family:Isaac Dubois and Neeltje Roosa (1) and added the names of the two spouses for Person:Neeltje Roosa (3). --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:00, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Jenn and good luck with your continuing work on our ancestral lines!--Ancestors1600 14:53, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Geesteren, Borculo, Gelderland, Netherlands [16 apr 2014]

hi Jennifer,

i have a question about Geesteren, Gelderland, Netherlands.

my impression was that the situation around 1900 is default for Places, Geesteren was part of Borculo at that time. still when i type Geesteren, Borculo, Gelderland, Netherlands, the page defaults back to Geesteren, Gelderland, Netherlands.


i don't understand the Places policy anymore. can you help me understand ?

thx, Ron--woepwoep 05:19, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Ron, de gegevens waren goed, maar stond nog niet op de juiste plaats. Op dat moment kon ik pagina's niet herbenoemen, op een later moment kon het wel weer maar ik ben vergeten deze als nog recht/goed te zetten. Dank voor de opmerking groet,--Lidewij 07:52, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

BD in name suffix field [22 April 2014]

Hello, Jennifer ! What does BD mean ? --> Person:Helen Watrin (1) and Person:Alfred Watrin (1) - Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 09:05, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The best I can come up with is Bachelor of Divinity, an academic degree in Theology. Without any biographical details on the pages, I can't know whether that makes sense. --pkeegstra 11:11, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, pkeegstra. I think there is no reason to leave this "information" in the name suffix field. WeRelate has a special field "education". Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 07:39, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
We also have "degree" and "graduation". I'm not sure if I use the three with the semantics which were intended, but the way I use them is "education" for attendance at a school where the person leaves before completing a degree, "graduation" for high school and for college bachelor degrees, and "degree" for advanced degrees. Since we don't know the details, we can't create such events for these people. --pkeegstra 10:32, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
I think chances are pretty good this is some personal reminder, meaning something like "birth and death found", a school they attended, or something like that. Either ask the user (small chance of a reply) or just delete it. You could be inventing a degree if you assume something you don't know. --Jrich 14:06, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Dutch Translation [24 April 2014]

Evening Jennifer, I've added two images here. I've worked dutifully on the translation, but have gone about as far as I can using Google Translate. Hoping you know someone who with time could fine-tune the translations to make them more grammatically correct. They're mostly understandable as is, but could always be better....--Frank 02:47, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Neder-Elten [28 apr 2014]

hi Jennifer,

how are you today?

i stumbled into another one of those nice little puzzles. see

Neder-Elten church community, is it Elten Germany? is it Didam, Netherlands?

it is not even on Wikipedia (weird) care to join the quest?

thx, Ron--woepwoep 22:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ron, I'm doing well, and hope things are well for you too.
Here is some information about Neder-elten. Gerarda does appear in this document on page 910. A photo of the church is on the WP page for Elten. This was a Roman Catholic parish, so the proper source to attach the event to is Source:Elten, Rheinland, Preußen, Germany. Kirchenbuch, 1636-1875.
The Repertorium van Nederlandse gemeenten says "Elten was een drostambt, met een functie die vergelijkbaar was met gemeenten."
1795. 17 Jan. Baptizata est Gerarda filia Gerardi de Reus et Gerardae Mom conjugum Levantes Theodorus de Reus et Theodora Mom. pg. 284 --Jennifer (JBS66) 22:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

thx, Jennifer ! now i understand: Elten was both Dutch (churchwise) and German (worldwise). Nice to see this mystery solved.
best regards, Ron--woepwoep 05:47, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Emma Jean Funk [15 May 2014]

This is my Mother, I have been trying to add different things, and not being familiar with this site has causes me some problems. Sorry to have caused you some problems Now my question is Can I add her death notice from the paper, news, since living people are mentioned there.--Pattylee 14:20, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

responded on user's talk page.--Jennifer (JBS66) 17:53, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Breathing room and trust [23 May 2014]

Jennifer - you have to give us some more breathing room and trust. I am well aware of the first name/last name rule for page titles and was in the process of fixing a handful of old, incorrect pages that appeared to have been abandoned by another user and were mostly red-linked. They have been wrong for years, so you've had plenty of time to correct them, yet all of a sudden you do so at the same time that I am working on them. That is rude and discouraging, especially when it results in lost work on a page that was being simultaneously edited. You know that manual editing is labor intensive and time consuming. If you really feel that you must interject while others are working, a more supportive way would be to write a heads-up alert on a Talk page or better yet, to extend the courtesy of a 12-24 hour grace period before interjecting to allow the dust to settle and to see if your concern still exists.--Cos1776 14:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

welcoming new users [27 May 2014]

I would like to help welcome new users to the site. How soon would I be able to begin or what process is needed to begin? Thanks! Menika_65--Menika 65 11:39, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Seeking advice on Source pages for church records [9 June 2014]

Could you please take a look at the topic Source pages for Norwegian kirkebøker I posted on Kaffilars talk page earlier this month, and then give me some advice. (BTW: I have not yet received a response from Kaffilars.)

I've been doing some more thinking on this topic, and am aware of 3 dilemmas:

  1. The existing one-page-per-municipality source pages include the year range in the name (e.g, Source:Åseral, Vest-Agder, Norway. Kirkebøker, 1727-1919). Therefore, they do not cover parish records published since the original filming by FHL. For example, The Norwegian Digital Archive now includes Åseral 1920-1946.

    This is the same problem that occurs for several and databases, which have been expanding in year range over the last few years. The obvious solution is to remove the year range from the title, but then it can be difficult to distinguish different collections with different year ranges. In the case of the Norwegian sources, if we just had one page (for church records) per municipality, that would not be a problem - but we would have to merge any source pages created for specific year ranges.

  2. Each set of parish records for a municipality, which covers a specific range of years, starts numbering pages at 1 (if page numbers are used at all). Therefore, within the parish records for one municipality, there can be many page 12's (for example). You can see from my post on Kaffilars talk page how I have addressed that in my own citations, so I don't see it as a large problem, but others might.

  3. Some Norwegian municipalities were part of others for a while (although they may have been separate parishes within another municipality). Hence, for Åseral, for example, parish records as published at the Norwegian Digital Archive are listed as:
    Bjelland / Åseral 1793-1815 when Åseral was a parish within Bjelland
    Åseral 1815-1901 when Åseral was its own municipality
    (Earlier records for the area that became Åseral are included in the Bjelland parish records and later records are listed as Åseral / Åseral for reasons I don't understand.)
    This makes it difficult to know whether to link citations for the Bjelland / Åseral records to the source for Bjelland, Vest-Agder, Norway. Kirkebøker, 1727-1924 or the source for Åseral, Vest-Agder, Norway. Kirkebøker, 1727-1919. The source page for Bjelland implies (based on the FHL Catalogue description) that it includes the Åseral parish records, but the page for Åseral includes the year range covered by the Bjelland / Åseral records. This last dilemma could be addressed by setting a standard and then adding "see also" links on each source page as appropriate. But would the solution be clear enough that people would know how to use the source pages?

My preference is still to have one source page per municipality (for church records), which I get the impression is what you did with the Netherlands source pages (and I think would provide the most flexibility for people to map their GEDCOMs to), but I am interested in your feedback on whether the above dilemmas suggest that we should switch to one source page per set of parish records, as Kaffilars seems inclined to do. Any advice you can provide would be appreciated. Thanks.--DataAnalyst 02:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

For the Netherlands, there are the pre-1811 DTB church sources and the post-1811 Burgerlijke Stand civil sources. You are correct that we are creating sources at the municipal level for them. More specific information (like the town/parish, page number, type of record baptism/marriage/burial) etc are placed within the citation itself (here's an example). We are also removing the year ranges from the title because they are very FHL centric and don't reflect the actual years of the NL source. I would agree that both Source:Åseral, Vest-Agder, Norway. Åseral 1793-1815 Parish Records (Official) and Source:Åseral, Vest-Agder, Norway. Åseral 1815-1853 Parish Records (Official) should be combined.

I've found that some of the Dutch users don't like to use the sources when the citation shows the FHL dates, Utah as the location, the film numbers, etc. This may be why Kaffilars created new pages and titled them "Official". When I'm working on the NL sources, I remove the FHL as publisher information, and the film numbers in the large text field - I only keep the FHLC as a repository.

As for which source page to link to when municipalities change... When you are looking at the page on the Norwegian Digital Archive, is it clear which municipality's book you're looking at? I ask because I'm looking at one as an example - Kirkebeker Bjelland 3 1792-1815 - if I found a record in that book for an event in Åseral, I would think that I'd still cite it back to the Bjelland book. I think see also links could help, as could putting the dates the municipality was in which location on the place pages.

There has been some recent talk about how to name sources whose location changed before 1900. Should they match the place page title or should they be titled to reflect the place as it was when the source existed?

If there is a piece to your dilemmas that I've not addressed, or if I can give you other NL examples, just let me know! --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the help - that gives me direction for addressing the dilemmas. Making the pages a bit less FHL-centric is also a good idea - I'll work on that. For the benefit of anyone wondering what I plan to do about the third dilemma:

For the parish registers that are identified as Bjelland / Åseral (when Åseral was a parish within Bjelland), I will link to the Bjelland source page and identify each citation as being from the Åseral parish.

BTW: The reason Kaffilars put (Official) in the title is because the Norwegian Digital Archive includes both "official" church registers as well as register copies, and identifies each set of records accordingly - so he was just copying from how they are presented in the Norwegian Digital Archive. Occasionally, a record will show up in the official records but not the copy, or vice versa. Also, I believe that the page numbers don't coincide, so it makes sense to identify which set you are looking at. I plan to identify when I use a parish register copy in my citation details and assume that others will assume I am referring to the official records otherwise.

Thanks again --DataAnalyst 00:16, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Volunteer for GEDCOM review [18 June 2014]


Dallan has put out a message on the Watercooler that you need more volunteers for the GEDCOM review committee. I would like to put myself forward.

As you may know I worked on improving the place pages for Ontario and, following that, the seemably never-ending task of sorting out England and Scotland. I live in England and am aware of online sources provided by organizations on this side of the pond that WR users in North America may be unfamiliar with. Looking at other people's pages (which I often do to break the monotony of an editing places session) I see all sorts of problems that other members have come up against--in the naming of places, the citing of sources, or simply in presenting a person or family page in WR format.

There are a lot more records available online than there were even a few years ago. I have a worldwide Ancestry subscription and have been finding my way around the new FamilySearch.

I am wondering if my experience with these records might be of help in guiding new users whose knowledge of their forebears before the first emigration to North America might be fuzzy or incorrect.

Regards --Goldenoldie 09:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Goldenoldie, great! Thank you for offering to help. What I'll have you do is leave a message on the GEDCOM review talk page about your interest in volunteering. I'll also e-mail Solveig about this. In the past, Solveig has mentored and lead new volunteers through the process of reviewing GEDCOM's.
Regarding helping new users, it sounds to me this would be a good fit for the Mentoring group. This group has not been implemented yet, but the idea is to pair new users with existing WR users who act as a mentor to ease them into the website structure and help with stumbling blocks. --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:14, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Apologies accepted [4 July 2014]

And my thoughts go out to you about your pet.

Looking forward to being part of the GEDCOM checking team.

Regards --Goldenoldie 16:01, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't see your whole message until after closing the edit. Mentoring is a great way to go.

Now I must stop half-listening [to the TV] and start watching my favourited tennis player playing a fellow Canadian--it's Wimbledon here. --Goldenoldie 16:04, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Boschma Family in the USA, The Neterlands and Australia [6 July 2014]

Hello Jessica,

My Name is Jan Boers from the Netherlands, I'm very interested is the Boschma family genealogy.

The reason is that:

My Mother was Geertruida Cornelia Boschma (1914-1995 ; 
Her father was Hendrik Anton Frans Boschma (1885-1965);
His mother was Yttje Jans Boschma (1861-1919); 
Her father was Jan Rintjes Boschma (1814-1874 who was married to Emke Gerrits Eringa (1824-1865).

So there is certainly a relationship with the Boschma family I found on , but the list of siblings of Jan Rintjes Boschma and Emke Gerrits Eringa there is incomplete. In total there were 15 siblings!

Please let me know if you are interested in completing the list and perhaps in a number of Boschma generations in Friesland before them.

On I have published my family trees (BOERSJ) , with a number of other related families too, but certainly with many Boschma ancestors (oldest 1580) You will also find their already: the 2 brothers an 1 sister of Yttje that immigrated to Massachusetts, but I'm interested to find out somewhat more about their siblings etc.

After World War 2, also 2 brothers of my mother immigrated with their families to Australia.

I hope to receive a response from you soon!

Regards Jan Boers--JanB1948 14:14, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

responded on user's talk page --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:48, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Unexpected Connections to Maaike Jacobs Bijlsma [10 July 2014]

I was thinking that Person:Maaike Bijlsma (4) might be connected to some of my Bouma (maternal grandmother) Bijlsmas. What I found was a direct relationship via my maternal grandfather's Postmas and the first husband of one of my father's nth great uncles on his mother's side. Once again proving that one never can tell what connections are to be found until one looks. --pkeegstra 10:04, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

It's fascinating how you keenly look for those connections :-) Deceiving isn't it - you'd expect to find some connection with the Bijlsma's. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:39, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
My holy grail is the common ancestor for my parents. I think such exists, and comes from the vicinity of Burum. That is, of course, where the Keegstras come from, but also from there are the Westras from the line of my maternal grandfather. I suspect there is a single source for the first name Metske somewhere around Burum, too. --pkeegstra 11:21, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Remove ... but I want just cleanup the "UID" [14 July 2014]

Hello Jennifer ! See please Family:Uriah Hawkins and Lydia Unknown (1) ... I already removed the children for some other examples of this "problem". Is this the better method ? Better as to recreate the pages for the children ? This second "option" is for me not so "good" because I have no source to prove that those children exist. Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 16:34, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I've got to ask: Why remove the UID? It leaves the page still a mess. Do readers see the UID on the page and say this website is junk? When I look around the Internet and see a webpage with no sources, I do say, this is junk. Why not spend the time making a difference? Do the pages you can, ignore the rest. A handful really cleaned up beats thousands still dirty minus one speck of dust.
By the way, it appears they do exist [5]:

Event Place: Cass Township, Harrison, Iowa, United States Household Role Gender Age Birthplace Uriah Hackings M 59 New York Lydia Hackings F 45 New York Emma Hackings F 16 Iowa Edward Hackings M 18 Iowa Mary Hackings F 14 Iowa Esther Hackings F 11 Iowa Uriah Hackings M 9 Iowa Lydia Hackings F 6 Iowa Hiram Hackings M 3 Iowa Household ID: 567 , GS Film Number: 803323 , Digital Folder Number: 004218131 , Image Number: 00358 --Jrich 16:55, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Marc, honestly, I don't know the best fix for this problem. I'm going to ask Dallan for more information and the best approach to fix it. --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:55, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

At the risk of destroying the example for Dallan, I have cleaned up the page and added sources. Suggest to Dallan to look at the history to see the original problem. I may add some more tomorrow as there some loose ends to mine for further details. --Jrich 05:32, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Yep, I did destroy the example, even if you look in the history. Sorry! Dallan, if you read this, all the children were red, except one, because they were deleted by a user who chose to delete his tree. As a result, you can't change the Family page because the save requires that you delete the links to the missing pages. In my opinion, the rule that pages only watched by the creator get deleted needs to be tweaked, when those pages contribute to a Family (either parents or spouse) that others are watching. Or the operation not allowed altogether. There is always manual delete and speedy delete if a person really wants to get something deleted. --Jrich 05:44, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

LNU ---> last name unknown ? [22 July 2014]

Hello, Jennifer ! I'am trying to clean up this family : Person:Thomas Newburgh (3) and I read that all mothers are "LNU". Can you confirm it's an abreviation ? please, see and the other abreviation "Gnu" (given name unknown) here ... Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 05:32, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Bonjour Marc! You are correct, they are abbreviations:
  • LNU - last name unknown
  • GNU - given name unknown
  • SNU - surname unknown
So, in your example family, Person:Hawisa Lnu (1), we would edit the page to replace Lnu with Unknown and rename both the Person and Family pages to read Hawisa Unknown. I believe the GEDCOM software now makes these corrections automatically to uploaded pages. --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:37, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Fine ! Thanks ! Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 16:39, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Van Der Leij Family [22 July 2014]

Hello Jennifer. I have been looking at our family pages and have some information that will need researching and corroborating. Jan Annes van der Leij 1746 – 1811 First wife Dieuke Murks. She was the daughter of Murk Rienks and Hiltje Gerrits. She was born on 4 Jan 1793 in Hijum and died on 3 Jan 1781. They had 10 children. Jan Annes remarried shortly after on 22 July 1781. His second wife Lijsbeth Johannes (Leistra)was the daughter of Johannes Haijes and Minke Heins who farmed in Wester Nijkerk and where she was born and christened on 19 Feb 1764. She died in Hallum on 5 March 1842 at the age of 78. There were 11 children but this was hard to trace as very few were christened. Jan Annes was one of 8 children born to Anne Jakobs (Jacobs) (christened 11 Jan in Finkum)and his second wife Foekje Alberts (christened 6 Feb 1718 in Finkum). Foekje was the daughter of Albert Jansen and Aattje Pijbes. The first wife was Lijsbeth Tjipkes of Stiens whom Anne Jacobs married on 18 Feb 1725. They had no children. Anne Jakobs (Jacobs) adopted the surname of Balkeindstra reflected on his marriage certificate and on the christening documents of his children. His occupation is given as "Ontvanger van Florenen". He must have died before 1766 because Foekje remarried on 19 Jan 1766 Rienk Jans Chirurgin op de Leije. They had no children. Anne Jacobs had a sister Wijpck (christened 26 Aug 1714) who married Roelof Claasses, a farmer from Hallum, on 15 May 1740. Their children took the surname Lettinga. Anne Jacobs and Wijpck were the children of Jacob Annes (Finkland)birthplace unknown, married on 28 July 1671 in Finkum to Wijpck Willems (christened 24 Sept 1682 in Finkum). Wijpke died before 1725, maybe in childbirth. This is quite a mouthful and comes from a booklet entitled "Het Geslacht Van Der Leij en enkele mededeelingen, die er mee annex zijn, verzameld door SJ Hoogland, rustend landbouwer te Leeuwarden. No bibliographic details. I hope this helpful in adding and completeing some of the pages. I want to start adding photos as well. Kind regards, Jenny van der Leij--Jvdleij 11:30, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Hello Jenny, thank you for this information. I added your text above to the talk page for Person:Jan Van Der Ley (1) since there are a few other users researching this family as well. --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:58, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

getting stuck [23 July 2014]

hi Jennifer,

can you help with the following?

there are two death records, which one is true?

thx, Ron--woepwoep 22:15, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The huwelijksbijlagen for Family:Berend Holkenborg and Teune Wopereis (1) shows Antonia's mother died in 1832. The Johanna who died in 1850 (#60) was listed as unmarried

Have you, by any chance, see this bevolkingsregister yet? There is this one also. Was Johanna married again? --Jennifer (JBS66) 23:14, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Here is the Memorie van successie for the Johanna that died in 1850. Maybe there are more clues here as to her identity. --Jennifer (JBS66) 23:22, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Kan geen pagina meer laden [4 aug 2014]

Hallo Jennifer Heb een probleem met nieuwe pagina's aan te maken krijg steeds de melding (Sorry! Uw bewerking is niet verwerkt omdat sessiegegevens verloren zijn gegaan. Probeer het opnieuw. Als het dan nog niet lukt, meldt u dan af en weer aan.)

Alles geprobeerd afmelden en computer opstarten niets helpt Gr Herman--herman34 21:48, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Hallo Herman! Dit probleem is met nieuwe pagina's alleen? Ik zal verder onderzoeken (research) dit. --Jennifer (JBS66) 22:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
One more question... Wat 'browser' gebruikt u ? (Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer) --Jennifer (JBS66) 22:57, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

had gisteren hetzelfde (Chrome) opgelost door chrome af te sluiten, cache gegevens te verwijderen (clear history) en opnieuw opstarten R--woepwoep 20:46, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

how to add immigrants to South Africa on [20 August 2014]

Hi Jennifer, where can I find the official South African (Cape Town) birth and death certificates and how can I add names to the category "Dutch immigrants to South Africa? Thanks for helping ---Beatrijs 01:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure on finding the official document online. There is this site. Click on "RSA All Archives Repositories and National Registers of non-public records" to search all records. When you enter a name, and press Search, your next screen will not show the results. You will see a sentence like "Your query, (Bergsma) was located in 313 documents and has been saved as query number 3". Press the Result Summary above for a list of the results. Each of the blue results can be clicked on too for more (limited) details. There is a complete set of instructions here
For gravestone photos and newspaper extracts, you can try this site (Their parent site,, is also helpful).
To put a Person page in the immigrant category, place this text in the large "Personal History" box on their page, substituting the person's name below:
[[Category:Dutch immigrants to South Africa|Surname, Firstname]]
You can see an example when you Edit this page: Person:Arnold Bergsma (1). --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:45, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your response Jennifer! Regards from Beatrijs--Beatrijs 20:56, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Jennifer, my question is about passengers from Holland to Grand Rapids and from there to Transvaal, SA. Where can I view these? I have the exact years and names but cannot find them in Ellis Island's website. Where else can I find these data? Thanks again Jennifer!--Beatrijs 21:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

It depends when they traveled from NL to GR. Have you entered these people on WR yet? I'd be glad to help look this data up if you let me know who you are looking for :) --Jennifer (JBS66) 23:12, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Jennifer, yes the names are Aafke Meersma and Kornelis Bakker, who according to the bevolkingsregister Leeuwarden 1876-1904 migrated to Grand Rapids on 2.1.1890 with 7 children. From there she, her husband and a few children migrated to Transvaal on 18.2.1890. I have contact with one of the descendants of Kornelis Bakker who lives in Cape town. She is trying to get more information but you know how it is, most relatives past away:-( I have uploaded a picture of Aafke Meersma with her 7 children, probably taken in Grand Rapids. Hope this helps finding them.. Thanks Jennifer! ---Beatrijs 06:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Archives du Nord [20 August 2014]

Hello, Jennifer ! ... Person:Brigitte Heger (1) --> I am sorry ! My links (on 2013, December the 27th) were perfectly correct, but with the time, this french administration had changed the indexation. It's a "classical" trouble with the most Archives Départementales in France ! I will find the new links in a couple of hours. Amicalement - Marc ROUSSEL - --Markus3 04:44, 20 August 2014 (UTC)