Contacting Me [10 January 2015]
If you ask a question here on my talk page, I will reply here (so please Watch this page). If I start a new thread on your talk page, I will Watch that page and reply there or indicate some other appropriate talk page for followup.
Because of past experience with attempted identity theft, I prefer that the identifier by which I have chosen to be known on WeRelate be used and that my personal name not be allowed to leak out to the public internet. Collaborating WeRelate investigators are welcome to request my personal name and the names of my living family members who link to the persons with pages on WeRelate via private email.
Stupid Questions [15 December 2011]
I know about the support page. This is where I record stupid questions I'm too shy to post there.
Hi, these are good questions. WeRelate does not have a relationship calculator (I wish we did :) If you did know how to get from A to B, you can put each person into a Tree and then Export a GEDCOM of that tree. Otherwise, there is no automatic way to calculate relationships on WR.
Yes, you can name the sources of your information. WR just doesn't want pages to be created for living people due to privacy concerns. You would want to avoid adding the person's email address or other personal information in your source citation.
Lastly, the Support page really is a good place for questions like this. We also have a Watercooler page, but that is a bit more advanced, and sometimes not as friendly for new users as the Support page is. --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:26, 11 November 2011 (EST)
Many thanks, Jennifer! --Pkeegstra 10:37, 11 November 2011 (EST)
A new stupid question.
--Pkeegstra 15:57, 11 November 2011 (EST)
Here are two pages with information about Text and Image copyrights:
If you obtained the images from Ancestry or FamilySearch, you can choose the "Ancestry.com limited use license" or "FamilySearch limited use license" when uploading the image. If you still need assistance with this, I'd suggest the Support page, because there are other admins watching that page who are more knowledgeable about copyright issues than I am. --Jennifer (JBS66) 16:06, 11 November 2011 (EST)
I was thinking specifically of scans I make of documents I purchased from county clerks in Michigan, such as the birth certificates I have for Melvin and Berend Huisman, which were typed in 1995 based on records in their custody. So I guess this one is not so stupid, and worth asking on the support page. --Pkeegstra 16:18, 11 November 2011 (EST)
A new stupid question.
Despite my deficiencies in the Dutch language, I found search sites for church records prior to 1811 in the provinces of Groningen and Friesland. Is there a comparable search site for Gelderland? I found the Gelderland Archive, but I can't see anything obvious. --Pkeegstra 16:33, 14 December 2011 (EST)
New Netherland Book Recommendation and Calendar Question [20 December 2011]
Not exactly a stupid question, but not the sort of thing one finds on the support page.
Does anyone know of a good book with Reformed Church records from New Netherland analogous to the Connecticut Barbour collection? The period of Dutch administration is essential, but continuity into the period of British administration would be a big plus.
This from Kingston, NY sounds like the sort of thing I'm looking for. Is this as useful as it sounds? I found a bunch more likely candidates when I used the keywords "reformed churches" in my search over sources. Which other ones are also particularly useful? Am I interpreting correctly that some of these, like this one, are available on Ancestry? Are there some not yet in the sources list I should consider?
BTW, according to Wikipedia in 17th century Netherlands (before 1700) Julian versus Gregorian calendar varied from province to province. Sounds pretty chaotic, but which did New Netherland use? I don't even want to think about the calendric ambiguities induced by the switch from the Dutch calendar to the English calendar.
--Pkeegstra 11:43, 13 December 2011 (EST)
Trijntje van der Woude [9 January 2012]
Thanks! Yes, that's why I first noticed her. I am a Bouma, and my Bouma great-great-grandfather was married to a van der Woude. So I looked, but I never found a link to her. But I put up a page for her anyways, because of her story. --Pkeegstra 16:03, 9 January 2012 (EST)
Lucy Hannah Unknown [12 January 2012]
Hi, just doing clean up. I found a page requesting help cleaning up old GEDCOM uploads in which people with ??? for a first name, surname and both are listed  and have been working my way through the list.
On another subject, if any of your MI folks found their way out to Lynden, WA I might have some resources. --Susan Irish 19:48, 11 January 2012 (EST)
I have a bunch of folks in Lynden, WA. (That's like Grand Rapids of the West Coast!) We'll need to compare notes. Probably offline, since most of the ones I'm thinking of are living. --Pkeegstra 19:54, 11 January 2012 (EST)
I see Antje (Anna) Tjoelker in the system. I have a second cousin who married a Tjoelker, and I have a family in my church whose grandmother was a Tjoelker. So if we can collaboratively fill out that line as the nonlivingness policy permits, that would be great. (I suspect all the Tjoelkers in Lynden are descended from just one family.) I found her parents in GENLIAS. I wonder if they were the first Lynden Tjoelkers? --Pkeegstra 13:15, 12 January 2012 (EST)
Heavens! These people are related to me! Tije Tjoelker's parents are Meindert Tjoelker and Antje Vaatstra, and Antje Vaatstra's grandmother was a Keegstra. See Hessel Gerrits & Antje Rinses Part One. --Pkeegstra 15:05, 12 January 2012 (EST)
Edna Tjoelker [15 January 2012]
Hi, I have added Martha and Bessie to the family. Edna married Jacob Vos 18 Feb 1943 and it looks like she is still living. A possible birth date for her is 6 Mar 1921. --Susan Irish 16:13, 15 January 2012 (EST)
I just found out this morning from conversations at church that Edna was the one who married the Vos. No info either way on whether she was still living, though. Thanks! --Pkeegstra 16:22, 15 January 2012 (EST)
Roorda [19 January 2012]
Hi, I have no proof on Nicholas Roorda's family BUT the 1930 census shows a son, Nicholas, of Mient & Hiltje that looks promising.
By the way Edna Vos is still listed in local phone directory.--Susan Irish 17:32, 17 January 2012 (EST)
What identifying info do we have for the Nicholas Roorda who married Martha? Anything? --Pkeegstra 17:52, 17 January 2012 (EST)
Foster Lincoln [19 January 2012]
Hi, There is a Foster Lincoln who married Martha Rogers, both of Wiscasset, 3 Mar 1843 who might be the brother of Mary (Lincoln) Crosby. --Susan Irish 16:45, 19 January 2012 (EST)
All the entries for that couple at Rootsweb have them both born in Phippsburg. Both places are in Lincoln County, so I'm not sure if that's a distinction which makes a difference. Maybe because that's where all their children were born.
(I've found a couple of the Lincoln children at Rootsweb. But noone at Rootsweb has all 8 Lincoln children linked together.) --Pkeegstra 17:00, 19 January 2012 (EST)
1850 census has: Foster Lincoln M 30y (Maine) Martha Lincoln F 35y (Maine) Georgianna Lincoln F 6y (Maine) Isaac T Lincoln M 4y (Maine) Clara C Lincoln F 2y (Maine) Oragina Lincoln F 2y (Maine) (In Phippsburg, Lincoln County, Maine) 1870 census has: James B Drake M 32y (Maine) Georgianna Drake F 25y (Maine) Ora G Lincoln F 22y (Maine) Martha Lincoln F 55y (Maine) Osaac F Lincoln M 24y (Maine) (In Bath, Sagadahoc County, Maine)
In the 1850 census that was the only Foster Lincoln in the US in the range 1819-1821, so I'm getting more convinced. And it looks like he's gone by 1870. --Pkeegstra 17:41, 19 January 2012 (EST)
Tfb6972 GEDCOM [13 February 2012]
The number of pages in this upload appears to be in the thousands. It has been around for almost five years so many pages have been merged. A lot of the pages don't make any sense as you have pointed out.just looking briefly I found a worse example on the 2nd page I looked at http://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Roelof_De_Valchener_%281%29 no dates no documentation no relatives and the names don't match. My line descends from Roeloff Martense Schenck http://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Roelof_Schenck_%281%29 I inherited my information from a great aunt who died in 1959. Neither she nor I, at the time, understood the need for proper documentation, and apparently most others following this line don't either. I suspect much can be found in HISTORY OF MONMOUTH COUNTY, NEW JERSEY by Franklin Ellis. I don't have a copy but I think I have seen a microfilm of it at our local FHC. Sources badly needed for these folks.--Scot 16:14, 13 February 2012 (EST)
Pilon in Whatcom County [27 February 2012]
Hi, I am finding a Ralph Pilon, son of Jacob & Hilje, born in Dakota, who married Anna Assink. Also found a daughter, Alice Pilon, b. Dec 1878, m. Boerhave. A John P. Pilon m. Minnie Boerhave -- not sure if he was a son as no details given with this record. The Gerrit b. East Indies, appears to have married under the name of Ralph G. J. T. Pilon giving parents names as Tonke(?) Pilon and Jennie Meyers. --Susan Irish 17:08, 27 February 2012 (EST)
One of us will need to add Ralph born in Dakota. According to the 1930 census it was South Dakota ABT 1887.
Alice Pilon must be Aaltje. The year is wrong but the month matches, and it's a common Americanization.
I saw John P Pilon in the census; he is almost certainly Jan Pieter.
--Pkeegstra 17:24, 27 February 2012 (EST)
Hendricks in Michigan [4 March 2012]
Hi, I have identified the first wife of Herman/Harmon Hendricks as Hattie Dubin or something similar. The marriage is said to have taken place in Michigan. Can you find it? --Susan Irish 18:25, 29 February 2012 (EST)
"I have been defeated in my attempt to track down a Netherlands birth record for Adrian Jongeneel. The obvious record was from a child who had died a few months later." Expert assistance will be greatly appreciated. --Pkeegstra 17:34, 4 March 2012 (EST)
Oosterbaan in Michigan [6 March 2012]
Hi, I find I have a death notice for a Benjamin Oosterbaan who came out to WA to work in the woods and was killed in 1903, age 23, father = John; no relatives in WA but buried Monumenta. Do you want to see if you can find his family? --Susan Irish 22:01, 5 March 2012 (EST)
There's another lady, born in 1907, died in Lynden in 2000, married name is Jennie Burgraff. Her husband Albert has different parents John and Mary, but maybe same extended family. --Pkeegstra 07:14, 6 March 2012 (EST) --Pkeegstra 10:24, 6 March 2012 (EST)
OK, it looks like Jennie Burgraff Jul 1893 is available. Jennie Burgraff Mcmahan was born in 1886 and Jennie/Jane Burgraff Van Ginkel was born in 1849. I see no SSDI for Jennie Nymeyer, so she probably died before 1965. Since she was born before 1900, I can make a page for her without knowing the death date. --Pkeegstra 10:59, 6 March 2012 (EST)
I was all set to add her, when I saw references to a Jennie Burgraff Beckman wife of Alfred Beckman born 1892, living in Lyon County, Iowa in 1920 and 1930. The birth record I found for the daughter of Arie and Anna was for 1892 in Lyon County, Iowa. Yup, there's the marriage record for the daughter of Arie and Anna marrying Alfred Beckman. --Pkeegstra 11:10, 6 March 2012 (EST)
Oops, I missed that you already posted the marriage license, so we have parents' names. Looks like I see her in the 1910 census in Whatcom County as Janie, born 1899 in Minnesota, which matches the license. I think we have this one resolved. --Pkeegstra 11:15, 6 March 2012 (EST)
Whatcom Map [9 March 2012]
You should remove "Lynden" from the description of Ten Mile Cemetery. It is several miles closer to Bellingham from Lynden in Ten Mile township and is still in use. --Susan Irish 22:46, 8 March 2012 (EST)
I was just going by the address in FindAGrave. I'll locate it in the county then. --Pkeegstra 06:50, 9 March 2012 (EST)
Are counties in Washington State partitioned into townships like they are in Michigan? (1885 map of Kent County, MI) If so, then townships would be the preferred place to locate cemeteries not located in incorporated cities or villages. Do you by any chance have a map of Whatcom County showing townships? --Pkeegstra 07:55, 9 March 2012 (EST)
I found this. So Washington and Oregon do land survey a lot like like Michigan. And I found this map of the the Land Survey townships in Washington. I still need a mapping between land survey townships like T 10 N, R 12 W and named townships.--Pkeegstra 10:35, 9 March 2012 (EST)
I think I found what I was looking for here. Not all townships had names, some had just their land survey names. But the ones that did have names, I should be able to extract from this. Should we make places for all the townships, even the ones that use just the land survey names? --Pkeegstra 11:46, 9 March 2012 (EST)
Roelf Pronk [20 March 2012]
Look what I found:
zou dit dezelfde kunnen zijn??--henk 07:18, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
United States Census, 1900 for Ralph Prunk name: Ralph Prunk titles & terms: residence: Larkin & Willmont Townships, Nobles, Minnesota birth date: Sep 1829 birthplace: Holland relationship to head of household: Father spouse: spouse's titles & terms: spouse's birthplace: father: father's titles & terms: father's birthplace: Holland mother: mother's titles & terms: mother's birthplace: Holland race or color (expanded): White head-of-household name: Claus Prunk gender: Male marital status: Widowed years married: estimated marriage year: mother how many children: number living children: immigration year: 1896 enumeration district: 0218 page: 3 sheet letter: A family number: 39 reference number: 34 film number: 1240778 image number: 00207 Household Gender Age child Claus Prunk M Fanney Prunk F Ralph Prunk M Ellie Prunk F Louie Prunk M Ralph Prunk M John Prunk M
her first marriage was to Geert van der Scheer (17 DEC 1889 Grand Rapids)--henk 09:38, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
BTW I will upload a gedcom with more details in about 1 hour ( I Hope)--henk 09:42, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
The Pekelder who married a Bouma is John Henry Pekelder Jr. His wife is living. I don't yet have his mother's maiden name; it looks like they just missed the cutoff date for the FamilySearch Michigan marriages archive. --Pkeegstra 06:52, 20 March 2012 (EDT)
Stremler in Whatcom County [27 March 2012]
Hi, I find a Fred Stremler b. 9 Mar 1876 Netherlands; don't know if he was brother to Lewis.--Susan Irish 22:20, 23 March 2012 (EDT)
OK, sounds like that would be Fedde, born 9 Mar 1876. Looks like there are 8 of them.
I don't think Alice and Henrietta Jager are related, but if you want I can find it out for you; I'm researching the Bruins Family and I also have some Jagers in my tree most of them from Winschoten--henk 08:26, 27 March 2012 (EDT)
FYI [26 March 2012]
http://www.migenweb.net/ottawa/churches/christianref/drenthe.html#Vriesland_Christian_Reformed_Church_History Mvg, --Lidewij 17:25, 26 March 2012 (EDT)
Thanks! --Pkeegstra 17:28, 26 March 2012 (EDT)
Pauline Karsten [30 March 2012]
I think Pauline Karsten Bos has been working on genealogy too:
Author: Pauline Karsten Bos Title: Publication by Pauline Karsten Bos re Brief History of Marten Jans Schans family Publication: Published mid 1970s Repository: Media: Manuscript Note: photocopied mimeographed papers Note: Family records say March 21. The following record says DOB was March 21, 1889, not March 11, 1889 as Pauline Karsten Bos wrote -- Broderbund Family Archive #110, Vol. 1, Ed. 7, Social Security Death Index: U.S., Date of Import: Dec 4, 1999, Internal Ref. #188.8.131.52946.116. Place of birth is from family records.
--henk 09:41, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
Noel Bergsma is a cousin???? hmmm interesting, I believe my Bergsma cousins are as well related to him and Bos My great uncle Taeke Beiboer married a Jenny Bos in Grand Rapids...... The world is getting smaller by the minute--henk 10:02, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
John Sidney Bos
The son of Alice Keegstra Bos and Ralph Bos was named John R. Bos. But I need to check whether he had a son John Sidney. John Sidney might be living. --Pkeegstra 17:40, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
In 1870 ( 6 april) a Cornelius Bos Arrived from Holland on the ship "the Queen" together with het Hugo Bos, However his age is given as 21!--henk 13:32, 30 March 2012 (EDT)
Cornelius Bos [30 March 2012]
I think this may be the Cornelius Bos you're looking for, but I'm not convinced (yet), however I don't think he was married before Maria van Doorne, There was a Cornelius Bos in Grand Haven married to Elizabeth Verwey (1867)but they had children after he married Maria and your Cornelius was not even migrated then Though I find it strange that he didn't name his children after his father or mother--henk 14:32, 30 March 2012 (EDT
well the death certificate tells it all: his mother's name Knelske Reints Vinkes, so his father is Jan Sikkes Bos
http://www.allegroningers.nl/index.php?task=persoon_detail&option=com_genealogie&Itemid=54&akte_id=2294589 --henk 15:31, 30 March 2012 (EDT)
Mol- Hilhorst [21 April 2012]
Thank you for noting that Luider Mol was the same person as Suijden Mol. I had not realized that. Am I correct in assuming that Henders Koorts from the marriage record of Evert Mol and Aaltjen Hilhorst is the same person as Henders Kooit from the marriage record of Harmen Mol and Gerritjen Hilhorst? --Pkeegstra 14:49, 21 April 2012 (EDT)
person talk pages versus user talk pages [12 May 2012]
I watch user pages of certain prominent users because there are sometimes messages of interest to me involving general issues or problems involving WeRelate. Lately you have had several "noisy" discussions on several user talk pages that seem to belong more on the talk pages of specific Person: pages than on a user page. If you could attempt to post your conversations on the Person pages rather than the User pages, it would help avoid a lot of noise on the user pages that most watchers of those user pages might not be interested in, plus put it on the talk page of a Person: where future readers are more likely to look for information on those people and therefore find it, rather than some user's archived messages. A single message on the user page saying you posted a question on the Person page would not be obnoxious if you then continued the discussion there? Thank you. --Jrich 00:07, 13 May 2012 (EDT)
Schols family [21 May 2012]
Hi, I have found a Schols family that was not part of the Lynden community. It looks like 4 brothers and possibly a sister came to USA and Canada at various times.
--Pkeegstra 07:21, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
Recent questionable edits [2 June 2012]
Paul, I'm getting a lot of emails for changes on Dutch pages I'm watching, and they mostly seem to be instances where you've removed information for a place name following the pipe -- information that many of us are at pains to include, to make the page more readable to users. Like reducing "Kingston, Ulster, New York, United States|Kingston, Ulster County, New York" to just "Kingston, Ulster, New York, United States". This serves no purpose. It's not a "correction". Please don't do it. --MikeTalk 11:20, 2 June 2012 (EDT)
Pkeegstra, I feel the contributions that you made today to the pages for early Netherlands immigrants were of great value. On a whole, these positive contributions far outweighed a few changes to piped places on pages that, for the most part, have not been touched since they were dumped here via GEDCOM years ago. --Jennifer (JBS66) 12:46, 2 June 2012 (EDT)
Conversation re: place page titles [10 June 2012]
Hi Pkeegstra, when you have a moment could you take a look at this conversation on my talk page? I would appreciate your input considering your work on Michigan place pages :) Thanks! --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:15, 10 June 2012 (EDT)
John Huizinga [24 June 2012]
I'm trying to locate John Huizinga[] in or around Grand Rapids. He's a brother of my partners Grandmother and we think that he migrated around 1950 together with the Slendebroek family. Do you have any idea how I can trace him?--henk 16:09, 20 June 2012 (EDT)--
Actually, there are two possibilities; one can either order death certificates from the county or, for a slightly higher fee, from the state.
--Pkeegstra 19:37, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
at least I found him in the death index: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V335-8YH
That's probably the first case then, since you know the day he died, but he may not have died in the indicated county. (I've had several cases like that, where the hospital or hospice was a different county than the county of residence.)
(And I guess I'm not a very good genealogist, because I don't know anything about how to track down Michigan wills or executors of estates, but I could ask my sister the Michigan lawyer. The executor of the estate may still be alive and contactable.)
--Pkeegstra 06:18, 21 June 2012 (EDT)
Calvin College Presidents and Dorm Namesakes [23 June 2012]
As if it weren't obvious where my interests lie.
--Pkeegstra 08:57, 23 June 2012 (EDT)
E-mail [27 July 2012]
Hi Pkeegstra, I wanted to check with you to see if you received the email that I sent you earlier this week. --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:32, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
I got it. Thanks! I was out of town at the beginning of the week. --Pkeegstra 09:03, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
Look at citation for ... [10 September 2012]
Maartje Pieters DeGroot - if needs to be corrected, let me know. I will go back and add other citations for Spoelhof then.
Deb Hall (nee Spoolhoff, in Wisconsin)--Hal2185 15:24, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
First Wife of Gerrard Staal? [6 December 2012]
Western Reserve boundaries [20 January 2013]
My apologies for the delay getting back to you. Here is a link for a Western Reserve map with modern county boundaries included. http://www.case.edu/artsci/wrss/documents/HaddadMapWesternReserveOverlay.pdf
If you look at an Atlas for Ohio, the west border of the Western Reserve follows the western borders of Erie & Huron Counties, except for perhaps the small "finger" of the lake side of Erie (I did not see that on the older map. None of Ottawa Co. was included in the W.R. by the way.
The Southern border is where the partial counties apply. If you draw a straight line east to west by using the southern borders for Huron, Medina and Portage Counties all the way to Pennsylvania, the Western Reserve southern border results. Therefore, the top tier of Ashland Co townships is in the W.R., the bottom tier of Summit Co. townships is not in W.R., and the bottom tier of Mahoning Co. townships is also not in the W.R.
The Firelands section includes both Erie & Huron Counties, plus the far NW township in Ashland County. The old map of W.R. is featured on its Wikipedia page. Hope this is fairly clear. --Neal Gardner 16:08, 6 December 2012 (EST)
You're quite welcome ! That was a challenge to describe in words, takes me back to college English. If you need anything else, don't hesitate to ask.--Neal Gardner 16:18, 6 December 2012 (EST)
St Andrew's Cemetery, Grand Rapids [19 December 2012]
Thanks for the info on the cemeteries in Grand Rapids. It will definitely be the Catholic one.
The McDermotts are part of a large (huge is a better description) collection of people from a small area of Ontario provided to WR by someone who left a whole lot of red-inked places in the neighbourhood. Just for fun I have been sorting them out. Our researcher only studied the Catholic part of the population. (I didn't know there were any Protestants in the area at all until I looked at the census!--Religion was always one of the questions on a Canadian census.)
Mary Cuddahy McDermott appears to have been born in Ireland in 1846 (both parents born Tipperary). She was third of seven children and the last three were definitely born in Mara, Ontario, but the original entry for her says born Ireland. No date for emigration, but it should be in the 1901 census for some of her siblings who stayed home. Looks like a just-post-famine migration. These census immigration dates are something our original researcher didn't look at and I haven't got around to it for this particular family group yet.
Censuses are my chief interest and I often find that an extended break of more that two years between birth dates in a string of children indicates the date of a migration.
Quebec again [16 January 2013]
Would you please take a look at Person:Alice Forestal and her Quebec problem. Thanks.
--goldenoldie 11:41, 26 December 2012 (EST)
Jacob Jans Kingma [14 January 2013]
Gosh, I remember working on the 2 Jan Jacobs Kingma pages. Definitely an unusual situation and a source for some initial confusion! --Jennifer (JBS66) 16:38, 14 January 2013 (EST)
[29 jan 2013]
Can you give me some help with this one?
Am I doing this the right way or do I have to edit Flatlands?--henk 10:57, 29 January 2013 (EST)
Category Dutch Reformed Church cemeteries [19 February 2013]
I have created a category for Category:Dutch Reformed Church cemeteries in order to collect cemeteries from the historical Dutch Reformed churches in North America and also the RCA and CRC churches.
I was wondering if it might make more sense to have the sort keys for these Category:Ethnic and religious cemeteries be Country, State/Province rather than cemetery name, since there are usually only a small number per state/province and cemeteries of the same category in very different places tend to have similar names.
--Pkeegstra 17:28, 11 February 2013 (EST)
Gravesend [18 February 2013]
Would you please take a look at Place:Gravesend Reformed Church Cemetery, Brooklyn, Kings, New York, United States and see if I added this one right?
--henk 14:23, 18 February 2013 (EST)
New Utrecht [19 February 2013]
Place:New Utrecht Reformed Dutch Church Cemetery, Brooklyn, Kings, New York, United States--henk 13:02, 19 February 2013 (EST)
Dutch Settlement Cemetery [22 February 2013]
and another one Place:Dutch Settlement Cemetery, Schoharie, New York, United States--henk 13:46, 19 February 2013 (EST)
and a few more: :-)
Alsace [10 June 2013]
My Alsace-Lorraine tips would be that being border land it has meant that France and Germany are provided as the country but many said they came from Alsace not either of the two countries that disputed the region.
Geneanet is used a lot by genealogists in the region. Once you can narrow down to what commune there are mostly easy and free to access registers and documents. Apparently due to the nature of small communities their was once a decree from a bishop of Alsace that all families had to maintain a family tree which had to be presented at time of marriage to avoid relatives who were to close, marrying.
By the way thanks for letting me know about how to fix the page I asked about.
Jeffrey--JeffreyRLehrer 14:17, 6 March 2013 (EST)
Katie Jousma daughter of Jacob [21 May 2013]
Katie Jousma VanderLaan is my great grandmother. I am working on a geneology book for my father and would love any pictures of her branch of the family. Is there anyone who I can contact to see if any exist?
I also have the information for the childred of Brugt (Frank) and Katie VanderLaan if anyone is interested in it.--Dmv34l 22:33, 27 March 2013 (EDT)
Thank you so much for the reply. Unfortunately my father passed away on March 30, so I have not had free time to spend working on this project in the last few weeks. I would love to see the pictures you were able to find. A direct relative or not the pictures are still cool. In the book I was making I ended up using a few pictures of relatives who we can't identify. Just too cool to leave out. --Dmv34l 19:59, 21 May 2013 (EDT)
Harper's [Harpers] Ferry [27 April 2013]
Thanks for the note on Harper's Ferry.
Since it was established by the 1750's, it was then in [then] Frederick County and later in Berkeley County, so I've updated the Harpers Ferry page to acknowledge that fact, so persons that had events in Harper's Ferry are shown in the correct county. If a person was born in "Harper's Ferry" in the 1700's was shown to be born in Jefferson County [a county that did not exist until 1801], it would be factually incorrect....
Have a great weekend,
Jim:)--Delijim 09:29, 27 April 2013 (EDT)
Hendrik de Cock [17 May 2013]
Hendrick de Cock himself had nothing to do with the emigration, it was the idea of van Raalte. De Cock himself leaded the "Chistelijke Afgescheiden Kerk" in Groningen and Drenthe. In 1848 with the new constitition there was freedom of religion. His oldest son followed him and became a professor. his other son became a lawyer and his daughters married businesman, Their life conditions weren't bad so they had no reason to go :-)--henk 09:28, 17 May 2013 (EDT)
Trout Run in Hardy County, Virginia [31 May 2013]
Hello, I got your message regarding Trout Run in Hardy County, Virginia. Trout Run, according to wikipedia "Trout Run rises between Devils Hole Mountain and Great North Mountain near the Virginia state line in the George Washington National Forest. The stream empties into the Cacapon River at Wardensville".
Wardensville is listed as a community along Trout Run, so they are not the same, since Trout Run is a waterway and Wardensville is a town that sits beside Trout Run.... Ideally, it would make sense to add "Waterway" to the list of "Places" on WeRelate to more accurately reflect Rivers and tributaries versus neighboring towns....
Link as follows: Trout Run wikipedia link
Hope that helps. Best regards, have a great week,
Jim:)--Delijim 18:54, 30 May 2013 (EDT)
Old news on the Main Page [9 June 2013]
As an admin and member of the oversight committee, can I raise with you the continuing embarrassment of the Main Page "news" section that still refers to something that happened 10 months ago. As I've set out on my user page, this is something that editors have been raising for weeks now. I have personally approached three admins and got nowhere: the first, Jrm03063 referred it to the oversight committee; the second, oversight committee member JBS66, referred it to the social networking committee; the third, oversight & social networking committee member, Klaas, replied that he is on holiday for a month.
This is ridiculous. Six weeks ago it was pointed out that "something that tired sends the wrong message". Taking six weeks to respond is completely at odds with the point of a wiki!
It will take you less than a minute to fix this: simply remove the box entirely from the page, and then once someone has drafted some new text they can simply add it back in. Are you able to do this? AndrewRT 20:10, 8 June 2013 (EDT)
Multiple Geert Ritsemas [20 June 2013]
Don't forget that Ritse or Ritze is a patronym ;-) and there were a lot of Ritzes/Ritses in Groningen before 1800. The both in Wittewierum can be related. The distance between Westerlee and Wittewierum is to large (I think) --henk 07:33, 19 June 2013 (EDT)
--Pkeegstra 19:49, 20 June 2013 (EDT)
Kingwood, Virginia [6 August 2013]
Howdy, got your message, the places are the same, so I've updated the existing page indicating that it was in Monongalia from 1776 to 1815, and deleted the newer page. Good catch!
Have a great week and best regards,
Jim:)--Delijim 17:26, 6 August 2013 (EDT)
I'm very envious! I wish I were closer to Virginia... :( With all of the Virginia work I've done over the past few years, I really need to schedule a trip in the near future...
Brush Creek and Anthony Place Names [22 November 2013]
Hi Pkeegstra, got your message on the place names. They two Brush Creek's should likely be merged, likely with the "Brush Creek" spelling as the primary. The Anthony's should likely also be merged with the alternate spellings included so it will match future entries. If you can tell me how to merge them, I'll try to do this in the future. (I'm assuming that all Admins can do this, but I don't see it as an option when I am on a place page).
One note regarding place names, I've thought for several months that we should allow "Churches" as a Place type. It seems strange that "Cemeteries" are allowed, but "Churches" are not. Also, "Waterways" should be allowed as place types, since many early settlers referred to the areas that they lived in by the closest River, Stream, Run or Creek. Allowing "Waterways" as a place type would solve this dilemma.
Jim:)--Delijim 18:13, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
It appears the predominent spelling is "Brushcreek", but there are some Ancestry Trees, Rootsweb records and Message Board postings that have it as "Brush Creek", such as:
It seems contrary to conventional wisdom (to me) to spell it "Brushcreek" over "Brush Creek", since normally you'd see "Cedar Creek" over "Cedarcreek", or "Salt Creek" over "Saltcreek", etc., etc.
In fact, in Early Augusta County, I don't recall a single creek where "Creek" wasn't separate from the identifying portion, so this one is somewhat "counter-intuitive" versus most....
Albert Terhune (5) [19 December 2013]
Looking for assistance. Here's what I have:
1) Albert Terhune (5) and Albert Terhuyne (1) are the same person. The files should be merged, but I've hesitated doing so because of the details that follow.
2) The record shows Albert Terhune (5) married to Hendrickje Van Voorhees (1) born abt 1634 --> note that her name is spelled with a capital V in Van. This marriage is not correct. Hendrickje Van Voorhees (1)'s record is correct in its entirely except for her marriage to Albert5.
3) The record also shows Albert Terhuyne (1) married to Hendrickje van Voorhees (1) born abt 1660 --> note her name is spelled with a lower-case v in van. This marriage is correct. Hendrickje van Voorhees (1) "lower case" is a separate person from "upper case" Hendrickje1 - both with the same father, but different mothers. See:
Christoph, Florence A. Van Voorhees Family in America: The First Six Generations. (Baltimore, MD: Van Voorhees Association, 2000), pp. 2, 10, 11. "Hendrickje Stevense van Voorhees, born circa 1660, probably in Holland; married Albert Albertsz Terhuyne, son of Albert Terjuyne and Geertje (--?--), circa 1676; died circa 1693. She was the second daughter to be named Hendrickje. The 1677 list of members of the Flatlands Reformed church mentions Albert Albertse and wife Hendrickje Stevense the younger, thus distinguishing her from her older half sister."
How does/should one go about cleaning the record up? Having trouble getting my arms around it...--Frank 21:19, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! You made that change look easy. I'll take a shot at lightly cleaning up Albert's page. In my short time here, I've learned to tread lightly lest I step on someone's toes...--Frank 18:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Just took a shot at cleaning up Albert's page. Looks better to me now. Take a look as you've time and let me know... P.S. You were right about the marriage/death dates. They needed some work!--Frank 19:07, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Watercooler problem 4-5 January 2014 [5 January 2014]
This was the first message which when I linked to the Watercooler page I got the wide spread.
"WeRelate talk:Watercooler" has been changed by AndrewRT at 22:32, 4 January 2014. Edit summary: /* Werelate on the rise */ why?
Switching directly over to Watercooler now everything appears clean. But that is not to say it won't happen from another email message.
Thanks. --Goldenoldie 16:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Further to Discussion on Support Page: Places in Devon [14 January 2014]
I just made a new discovery while trying to sort out the birth location for someone who married into my family in Canada.
GENUKI's gazetteer. I use GENUKI as a reference a lot working from the county pages, but I had never discovered the nationwide gazetteer before. It holds co-ordinates and links back to the notes on the parish, even when the name of the place does not come up in the parish description. In Devon (although not in every county) each parish page contains a map locating it.
I tend to look upon GENUKI as a very old-fashioned website providing very old information. It depends on 19th century gazetteers (and in Yorkshire that means the 1820s before civil registration!). There was a nationwide reorganization of municipal boundaries in 1974. Wikipedia provides the geography after 1974. A Vision of Britain through Time deals with the inbetween to a degree, but could go into a lot more detail than it does. --Goldenoldie 11:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Talk Change, Why? [28 March 2014]
Why was this done?
"User talk:Rgbarnes" has been changed by Pkeegstra at 14:19, 21 January 2014. Edit summary: Farmington (Avon) [21 January 2014]
Ron--Rgbarnes 22:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Visit to Holland [12 jun 2014]
Hello: Bill Collins here son of Patricia Collins (Spoolhoff) daughter of John spoolhoff of ladysmith WIsconsin. I will be visiting holland this June and would love to visit with any relatives. Please send me a message at William.k.Collins.Vic@ mail.mil. thanks.--William collins 01:51, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks but haven't looked to my relatives who are buried in Arlington. I know of two that survived Andersonville and moved to Ohio. Thanks and take care.--William collins 14:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Names of the sources [9 June 2014]
Best, only the sites/place should be renamed to 1900. Sources not. For example, the marital status of a former municipality remains the civil status of the former municipality. The municipality is that particular period and not 1900. Names of the sources remain original. Groet, --Lidewij 19:44, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Uvilla duplicates [14 July 2014]
Howdy, I've combined Uvilla onto the Jefferson County, WV Page and deleted the other two.
Thanks, have a great week,
Jim:)--Delijim 12:41, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Meindert Jans Bonnema, Lijsbeth Gerbens Dijkstra [18 November 2014]
My name is Jack Mason. I live in Philadelphia, Pa in the US with my wife Jennifer.
The reason for this message is that I was searching Google for information with regard to my wife Jennifer's distant relatives Meindert Jans Bonnema born August 2, 1780 in the Netherlands who died on October 29, 1858 in Arus and Lijsbeth Gerbens Dijkstra who was born on September 21, 1783 in the Netherlands and she died there on October 24, 1851 and noticed that you were looking at their names. We would appreciate if you could let us know if you are related to them in any way?
My wife's father was Richard Bonnema, who was born on September 28, 1923 in Clifton, Passaic, New Jersey in the US. Richard God bless him, recently passed away in 2013. His great grandfather was Gerben Meinderts Bonnema who was born in the Netherlands on August 15, 1805.
Thank you Pkeegstra for your time.
email <elided> --Munich420 21:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Responded via email. My father's great-aunt married Karst Bergsma, whose great-aunt was Boukjen Jillerts Bergsma the daughter-in-law of Meindert Jans Bonnema and Lijsbeth Gerbens Dijkstra. --pkeegstra 11:43, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Gerrit DeWitt [10 January 2015]
I see you are watching the Gerrit DeWitt line on We Relate. My great grandmother, Kunje "Carrie" DeWitt, was his sister. I am looking for photos of Carrie and "earlier relative", such as Carrie and Gerritt's grandparents. I have 2 photos of the family that John, who I would think is "G. John=Gerritt John" is in.
I don't look at this page very much, so I may not get back to you right away….--Bookgirl2 16:49, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
keegstra [1 March 2015]
Hello P Keegstra, I am not good at navigating We Relate, but I do see that you relate to my Keegstra. My grandparents were Cornelius ( Neal ) Keegstra and Jeanette Dise. My mother was Ruth Mae Keegstra Boerema and her sister was Jean Connie Keegstra Deboer.--Nanaroo 16:37, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Welcome! My grandfather was also Neale Keegstra, but a different one. I remember seeing you here once before. At one point I had your mother confused with Ruth Keegstra Walton, but eventually I got them straightened out. Jean has always been sort of a celebrity for the family, since her name was in the sunday school hymnal, and now she's even in the Psalter Hymnal. --pkeegstra 16:50, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing the death date for your grandfather. I think the 1979 death date is for my grandfather's cousin Neal the son of Rev. Henry, (born about 1906) but I'm having a bit of trouble finding a source for that right now. Once I do I'll make a page for him. --pkeegstra 12:09, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Oops, that Cornelius Keegstra died in 1938. The Western Michigan Genealogy Society knows of no Cornelius or Neil Keegstra dying in Western Michigan in 1979, only Donald Keegstra (n.b. not my Dad's first cousin). --pkeegstra 20:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Column religions on Landverhuizers [28 February 2015]
Rev. Evert Breen [19 March 2015]
Hi, I found his obit today and typed it up. If you would like to create a page for him I can add additional information about some of his children. The name I have for his wife may not be correct as I do not yet have her obit. --Susan Irish 04:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC) http://www.wagenweb.org/whatcom/obits/obitbr_by.htm
Challenge [27 June 2015]
I have seen enough families with both Jan and Johannes that I can say that is not particularly uncommon. I have seen at least once a family with both Pier and Pieter. (On my person page I list a family with a Klaas and a Nicolaas.) I wonder if anyone knows of a family with both Paulus/Poulus and Pouwel. --pkeegstra 11:48, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for any confusion: The intent of my challenge was not to find a single person called both Pouwel and Poulus. What I was looking for a family with one sibling named Pouwel and the other Poulus. In fact it was because of the above Kweekman example I was asking the question. I've never seen one person (not an immigrant) named 'Jan' and 'Johannes' interchangeably, or one person named 'Pier' and 'Pieter' interchangeably. So my question is whether the difference between the two names Pouwel/Paulus was considered less significant than those other examples and thus a family would in fact not name children that way. --pkeegstra 20:02, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Being an non-Grunninger, i would decide that Poulus is the phonetically spelled Christian names for Paulus and that Pouwel is the phonetically spelled "roepnaam" for Paul. I find it hard to believe that one brother would be called Paulus and another brother Paul. Not while they are both alive at the same time. Hope this helps woepwoep 07:40, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
I have been rummaging through old Catholic church records lately, and many Christenings and marriages are recorded with the names Latinized, while, in this instance, deaths/burials are in English. For instance, Jacob is recorded as Jacobus; Hugh is Hugonis or Hugo; Denis is Dionysius; Mary Ellen is Maria Helena; Margaret is Margaritta; Thomas is Thomae; Joseph is Josephum; Michael is Michaelem; Bridget is Birgittae; William is Gulielmus. Because of the rules of Latin grammar, the endings of the names change depending on whether the person is a child or a parent! These people most definitely would not have used Latin versions of their names at all: the Latin was merely a peculiarity of church records. --Helen-HWMT 22:41, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Bentheim, March 2012 [25 March 2015]
Thank you [28 March 2015]
Thank you Pkeegstra,
I have watched some of the videos, but there is a lot to learn, and only 7 days to complete a GEDCOM review -- I thought it was 14! I may well go about re-building the way you suggest, though there are over 150 deceased people on my tree. Your support is much appreciated.--Helen-HWMT 16:45, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
King and queen visiting G.R. [7 June 2015]
did you see http://www.freep.com/story/money/business/michigan/2015/06/01/dutch-royals-grand-rapids/28321039/ ?--woepwoep 19:05, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Kornelis van Zanten [14 July 2015]
The marriage record for Kornelis vanZanten and Freerkje Wieringa 14-05-1864 Uithuizen indicates his parents were Folgerts Klaas vanZanten and Trijntje Kornelis Gast. Are they the same as your vanZanten Gaste couple? This couple settle in Grand Haven MI.--Diane Hosler 19:10, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you - and hope I thanked you before this.--Diane Hosler 18:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Elizabeth/Elizabethtown [14 July 2015]
The history of Elizabeth/Elizabethtown (Essex) NJ is fairly well explained on the various pages by Wikipedia quotes. I have an ancestor, Jan Winans who was a founder of Elizabethtown, which started out as a "Tract" or "District", then as a township, borough. Finally in 1855, the township and borough were voted to unite into a city. And just to unsimplify things, "Elizabeth" the city became part of the newly created (1857)Union Co. So for 150+ years Elizabethtown had a rich history, populated by hundreds of my relatives. Elizabethtown is one of the reasons I hope that one day WR finds an easier way to express places in existence pre-1900. I don't have the answer; hopefully someone more tech-minded will have a fairly simple solution. Neal --SkippyG 16:38, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Place spinning [29 October 2015]
I've noticed the slowness of entering new places too, since I am currently adding information about Lincolnshire, England, and its component parts. My firewall is set to only accept updates once a week, so, I agree, that isn't the problem.
Late last week Dallan and I were having an email conversation about changes to the workings of the places database. This conversation ended on Sunday with him going off on a week's holiday. I guess we'll have to wait a few more days to see if he can improve the checking speed.
regards, --Goldenoldie 13:58, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
"1900 Rule" in Nederlands? [15 November 2015]
Is there a page in Nederlands describing the "1900 Rule"?
(For that matter, what is the best page in English describing the "1900 Rule"? The best page I found on place pages is this one, but it doesn't mention the "1900 Rule".)
--pkeegstra 11:26, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Recent suggestion: Remove red entries [14 November 2015]
I have received a standard notice of your setting up a suggestion "remove red entries", but I can't find it on the suggestion list or within the most recent suggestion. What happened? --Goldenoldie 19:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Keegstra [19 December 2015]
I see that you Have Jean Connie Keegstra Deboer and Ruth Mae Keegstra Boerema as your cousins. My mother was Ruth Keegstra and Jean Connie was my aunt. If you have an interest to email me, I am email@example.com or Facebook.... Nancy Boerema Coan. I have not explored WeRelate that much, so not sure yet how to navigate and make use of this site.
Sincerely, Nancy--Nanaroo 22:26, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Keppel [21 February 2016]
Keppel was a gemeente up and until 1817 See here: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keppel_(gemeente) so how do i register that on http://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Hendrika_Bloemendaal_%282%29? Thx, Ron
Keimpe Jacobis x Dieucke Eelkes [21 mrt 2016]
I run into this marriage record at https://historischcentrumleeuwarden.nl:
Naam Bruidegom Keijmpe Jacobis
Are these persons perhaps related to the Jacob Keimpes in your family?
Guppie 12:15, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Good find. Thanks! I wouldn't be surprised if that were an ancestor. The problem is that Jacob Keimpes was doopsgezind, so I'm stuck at the level of proving the name of his father, because that can't be done from the (nonexistent) baptism register, it requires digging through tax rolls and other records, none of which are digitized. --pkeegstra 09:05, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Hommema families [11 April 2016]
This website confuses me: I was reading your question if we would be related (through the Hommemas), but cannot find that anymore. I used to follow the Hommemas at one stage and somewhere the name crosses one of my distant family members. We have a lot of other names in common though! Kind regards from--Beatrijs 11:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I found it now on my talk page...
Person:Geeske Zwerver (1) [25 May 2016]
I moved "see family page" (= not my contribution) because I found the real sources. If you think that that was wrong I am happy to change that back to how it was before but then there are no "real" sources. Kind regards from Beatrijs--Beatrijs 13:48, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Possible relationships [9 July 2016]
Referring to "Rintje Harings and Pietje Johannes" they were put in the"free text" by me as being Possible parents to Benskje Wagenaar. The akte reads "parents unknown". The date of birth was possible 1762 and not 1760. The name was Bens and not Benskje. Since her brother was mentioned in the marriage certificate: Bruid: Benskje Rintjes wonende te Harlingen de bruid wordt vertegenwoordigd door haar broer Haring Rintjes, I only assumed the found parents being Rintje Harings and Pietje Johannes.--Beatrijs 01:30, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
OC-Committee [21 July 2016]
Hi I am writing this to you and to BobC and cos1776. We appear to be the only active members of the OC-committee.
I have been trying to get my thoughts in order since we discussed possible reorganization of the Source box around 10th July. As I explained then, our household situation is not a smooth one. However, the work on the Source box has now moved out to the Watercooler without our really coming to a consensus. Have we reached any conclusions we can put to Dallan? From what he told me when he and I last discussed things, he should be freer of other commitments now than he was then.
Unfortunately, in the past 48 hours some section of my computer or my browser has denied me entry to our google groups OC-committee message board. The pinned tag I had leads to another organization completely. Can any of you help put me back into the right link?
Thanks. Pat --Goldenoldie 06:37, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Trijntje Thomas Ferwerda [14 August 2016]
Good afternoon. Unfortunately the marriages you indicated were not meant for this Trijntje Thomas Ferwerda, because she died with 5 years of age. Trijntje Ferwerda kind 24-07-1873 Baarderadeel Geboorteakte Akte 110 Trijntje Thomas Ferwerda overledene 25-08-1878 Baarderadeel Overlijdensakte Akte 102
Marriage 1 May 1902 Lowell, Kent, Michigan, United States religious - Rev. J. Van Houte to Jelle van der Woude Marriage 8 Jan 1940 Grand Rapids, Kent, Michigan, United States to Willem Borgman
Maybe they belong to another Trijntje Thomas Ferwerda? Regards from Beatrijs--Beatrijs 05:33, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
TODO: Family:Jochum Stienstra and Trijntje Andringa (1) [19 September 2016]
Lots of people connect to this family, but noone has gone thru systematically to give each of them a sourced birthdate. --pkeegstra 19:28, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
I have some left time on my hands and can help you finding some dates, sources, etc. Beatrijs--Beatrijs 02:25, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Found huwelijk in Den Haag for Jan Stienstra and Louisa Boekhout. Beatrijs
See Graftombe.nl Voornaam Achternaam Begraafplaats Geboortedatum Overlijdensdatum Foto ID Riemke Wallinga Hallum 02-11-1878 16-02-1963 718
Their overlijdensakten should be public, but are not on AlleFriezen or ZoekAkten. Does anyone know of another source for very recently available overlijdensakten? Jan Stienstra is said to have passed away in 1967 in Hallum, See graftombe.nl Jan Jochums Stienstra Hallum 03-01-1878 19-02-1967 718
quality 3 [31 October 2016]
Good morning! I am just wondering why you delete "quality 3" in for instance overlijdens akte of Antje Minnolts Dijkstra. Quality 3 means above all that I have actually seen/read the akte, which is an important fact when recording data. Kind regards from Beatrijs--Beatrijs 22:16, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Re quality 3
I just wonder WHY this has changed. 99% of my contributions are backed up by the original text, that means I have to change every time the text and insert "met beeld"? Please change it back to where it was before. Kind regards from Beatrijs--Beatrijs 23:43, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
So, if default is text/image I write nothing, if there is no image I will write "geen beeld' under "note"
You agree with that? Do other watchers agree with that?
Regards from Beatrijs--Beatrijs 05:56, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Request for a response from the Overview Committee [30 October 2016]
Hope this Halloween weekend is treating you well! I have sent you several private emails and have received no response, so perhaps they are not reaching you. The Overview Committee needs an answer from you on whether or not you would like to continue to participate on this committee. We hope the answer is yes! Please respond by Monday, October 31st when we will be updating the lists of committee members for Dallan. Thank you, --cos1776 22:42, 29 October 2016 (UTC)