User talk:Susan Irish

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Family Names [7 July 2015]

Hi Susan,

This is the recommended method of entering family names. If there are 2 or more families with the same name the index number will identify them.

a. Enter the first given name and surname of the husband and the given name and maiden name of the wife of the family you want to create. It is okay to leave fields blank if you do not know them. Do not enter other information such as middle names, nicknames, or titles. For example, if the husband's name was Robert Harold Townsend III and the wife's name was Lady Sarah Bradley, you would enter "Robert" and "Townsend" as the given and surname of the husband, and "Sarah" and "Bradley" as the given and surname of the wife. There will be an opportunity to enter additional information later.

--Beth 22:30, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi Susan,

I noticed you've edited details about my grandparents, surnames LUCAS and GILBY, I can't see how we are connected could you let me know?

ETA: I just realised you've edited pages about other relatives too - but I still can't see a connection between us.

best wishes, Kate--Kateblogs 14:39, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Vital Record of Rhode Island [19 October 2008]

The actual title of the work is singular (not vital records). A minor nit, but one would think all aliases should point to the real thing, not that the real thing should point to an alias, IMHO.


--Jrich 23:14, 31 August 2008 (EDT)

Merges [19 October 2008]

Hi Susan,

I just got a bunch of messages from you merging the Whites/Allgars. It's nice to see those getting fixed, but be careful when merging to uncheck the duplicate data. Several people ended up with duplicate data that's human but not machine recognizable (i.e. a birth of 1562-3-11 when there's already 11 Mar 1562 in the record.)--Amelia 21:15, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

Thanks Amelia, I have been merging lots of duplicates in my line. I do try to be careful.--Susan Irish 21:18, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

Whaley Family [19 October 2008]

Hi Susan. My name is Brent Whaley and I noticed that you accessed some information regarding my family on We Relate. I was wondering what the connection may be. I have been researching my family tree off and on for some time and I am always looking for new information. Regards, Brent Whaley--Bwhaley 21:43, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

Hello Brent, I have been merging many duplicate pages. I have a very remote connection to a Lydia Whaley who married John Sweet. She died in 1754 in North Kingstown, Rhode Island. I think her father was a Theophilius Whaley but for some reason I did not add him to my genealogy program.--Susan Irish 22:16, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

Volunteer Hours [28 October 2008]

Hi, I am very grateful for your help with WeRelate. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind recording the time you spend helping out. WeRelate is a 501C3 nonprofit organization. In order to keep our tax deductible status, we need to show public support. Time is the same as money. So we ask people who work on projects, or work on things beyond their own stuff to record their time at Volunteer log. Thanks so much.--sq 11:12, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

Hannah Perry [4 November 2008]

Susan, I received this message an hour and a half before your edit on Hannah:

You are receiving this notification because you have chosen to be notified via e-mail when a page in your Watchlist has been modified by another user.

The following page has been changed by Bill Wright at 20:03, 4 November 2008. Edit summary: Remove incorrect parents.The parents of this family are unknown.

  • View changes since your last visit:

  • Leave a message for Bill Wright: --Scot 18:07, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Can I get a gedcom file for Hannah Holbrook? [12 November 2008]

Hi, I get a lot of emails from changes that you make. I tried updating my database, but it would be more accurate if I could get a copy of your gedcom file. -- Larry Maddocks 801-759-1604 My web page with Holbrook: [2]--Waterart 22:08, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Hi Larry,

The reason for so many changes was that there were 4-5 gedcoms that had been uploaded each containing the name Hannah Holbrook who m. Ephraim Pierce. I merged these Hannahs into 1 page.

I didn't do a good job in documenting my source when I discovered that my ancestor, Elizabeth, 2nd wife of John Holbrook was Elizabeth Stream. I think it was an article in NEHGR a few years back. My source placed Hannah as a daughter of John Holbrook and first wife, Sarah and so I moved Hannah to that marriage.

I am happy to share what I have but I don't have any more details about Hannah. My ancestor was Sarah Holbrook, first child of John and Elizabeth (Stream) Holbrook. She appears to have been named after John's late wife which was a common practice.--Susan Irish 22:55, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Hello Susan,

Today I received a long list of pages you are changing/merging, etc. So, I visited some. I noticed a different lineage for Giles Smith (1604-1669). Upon searching, it seems your lineage assigned to him is more likely correct. As Giles is in my direct line, at a juncture leading back to the 14th century along more than one line...I rediscovered something I had noticed earlier. While Giles' lineage seems to be as you assigned on the redirect, his wife, Mary's lineage (Thomas Wheeler and Ann Halsey) appear to probably be incorrect. It was part of a lineage series obtained on the couchgenweb site, during my first breakthrough on the Couch line (much of which has proven correct). If the dates given are assumed correct, for Mary to be the daughter of Thomas and Ann, her mother Ann would have been 10 years old at her birth, and would have been married (1623) to Thomas when she was 8 years old. Perhaps this is as simple as an incorrect date being passed down to us, but clearly as it is, there is a very unlikely relationship sequence.

Do you know of any documentation regarding both Giles' and Mary's lineages?

Thanks, Doug Couch --Dougcouch 18:51, 25 November 2008 (EST)

Meaning of code UID: [1 December 2008]

Hi Susan, I appreciate all of your great work on our many mutual ancestors of Rode Island, etc. Recently you gave Robert Burdick's wife a last name with the reference: UID: A987DFD0440BD61189932C4A07C100006FFF. What does UID and the accompanying number mean? Thanks, Sheri Iamele of Worthington Ohio aka Gramma's Garden--Sheri 09:27, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Hi Sheri, That UID code was uploaded by somebody's GEDCOM and whenever I find it I delete it. Sorry I missed it when merging the Burdick file. We must be related many times over. --Susan Irish 19:17, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Hi Susan, I had been deleting it also but was afraid that I really made a big mistake since you had left it in. Glad I am on the right track. Yes I am sure we are cousins many times.

Stephensons [6 December 2008]

Hi, Susan -

I'm very interested in the work you have done merging into "my" Stephensons. I know of only a couple of cousins who are working on this line so am intrigued to see someone else interested in this family. Lynn Alan Hetlet just published a book on 4 generations of these Stephensons. I have pictures if you would like to see them. Kathryn Hall Allahyari, Mercer Island, WA--Katsus98040 03:12, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Hi Kathryn,

Greetings from Bellingham. I have been helping with the merging of duplicate pages project. I probably came upon your Stephensons from one of my surnames but I don't know which one right now. One of the goals of WeRelate is to have only one page per individual and family so when duplicates are uploaded someone has to merge them.--Susan Irish 14:18, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Susan - Sigh. I was all a twitter thinking there was a new cousin - and one interested in genealogy, too! I apologize for uploading two gedcoms that must have contained a generation in common. Sorry for the extra work I caused...... Kathryn (in sunny, warm WA on Dec. 6, 2008!!!)--Katsus98040 15:32, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Frederick & Margaret (Spangler) Erickson [25 December 2008]

Hi Susan, How are you related to Margaret (Spangler) Erickson? She was my maternal Aunt.--sandyink 23:50, 24 December 2008 (EST)

Hi, I am not related. There are lots of duplicate pages on WeRelate and I have been helping out with the merging process. Are you interested in help with the merging? --Susan Irish 16:00, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Partnering in our Merge Efforts [30 December 2008]

Hi Susan. I see that you and I are merging pages today. You're also merging pages that are relate to one of my trees. Shall we coordinate our efforts? Or at least keep each other informed? If it helps, I'm "jilpaints" on AIM and geo.jillaine on Skype, both of which I have running right now. jillaine 09:45, 29 December 2008 (EST)

Hi Susan; nice chatting with you recently. FYI, I'm following your lead-- sort of. I'm going through the alpha list of duplicates and looking for Colonial New England surnames that I recognize. I am absolutely blown away by the sheer quantity of duplicates that exist. It's INSANE. jillaine 14:18, 30 December 2008 (EST)

Ellis family line [30 December 2008]

Hi Susan,

I found your info on the Ellis family, John Ellis married to Suzannah Royall. Their son John Ellis II had a son John Ellis and his son was Jezereel Ellis,who had a daughter Sarah Cytha Ellis that married a Shoemaker. Sarah Ellis is my gggggrandmother. By any chance do you have any information on her descendants? Her ggggranddaughter Elizabeth Nan Shoemaker married Frank Schubert and he is my gggrandfather on my mother's side. Thanks for sharing all your information.

Have a Happy New Year! Donna--Dtutt 12:37, 30 December 2008 (EST)

Hi Donna,

I don't have Ellis family information. I have been helping with the merging of duplicate pages on WeRelate. Your file and another file had duplicate entries and when that happens someone has to merge them. Take a look under the heading "My Relate" and you will see an option called "Show Duplicates" you may find that there are more duplicates to your pages that can be merged.

Happy New Year to you too. Susan --Susan Irish 16:52, 30 December 2008 (EST)

Categories [7 February 2009]

Hi Susan,

I checked Robert Viner (1) and his article is included in the Viner surname and Viner in England. Maybe the problem has been corrected. --Beth 07:20, 7 January 2009 (EST)


Forgive me as I am having some problems on learning how to use this site. I see that you have been busy with a lot of Calkins data. Are you related in any way or as I see from other postings you are helping to merge and clean up files? I have an extensive database on the Calkins Family. I am past president of the "Calkins Family Association" (CFA) and Administrator for the Calkins Family YDNA Project at FTDNA. Since we began this project it has become apparent that a considerable amount of data accumulated over the years is not correct. Ydna results for too many Calkins with ,supposedly, well documented ancestries, myself included, are in fact false. 67 markers tested on 14 Calkins with different lines of descent. Because of differing mutations and lack of any mutations proves this. If you would like to contact me by email my address is: 13:29, 7 February 2009 (EST)

Sarah George Miles [16 February 2009]

I have received several notices that you've changed some data I entered around this person. I put it up a long time ago, and haven't been back to learn how We Relate works, and don't have time right now either. Please contact me directly. 11:38, 16 February 2009 (EST)

Nice work on Sabin merges [18 February 2009]

I like how you're augmenting/editing the Sabin merges. Nice work linking to the disputed pages. -- jillaine 21:58, 18 February 2009 (EST)

thanks [21 February 2009]

...for fixing the misspelling in Person:Suanna Woodward (1), I didn't notice it.

--Jrich 22:51, 20 February 2009 (EST)

Merges [24 February 2009]


I am helping to clean up the abandoned gedcoms. The feeling is that we may want to delete gedcoms of people who have elected not to recieve email from WeRelate. We can't colaborate with people who do not want to be contacted. You have merged many of the pages from these gedcoms and are not watching those pages. The unwatched pages would be deleted. Would you mind taking a look at WeRelate_talk:Duplicate_review#Unsubscribers_with_a_lot_of_duplicates_.5B24_February_2009.5D and giving us your opinion on these gedcoms. I don't want to do a global delete on a gedcom that is important to you. Thanks. :)--sq 13:43, 24 February 2009 (EST)

Hold on Fgdavis01 Merges [27 February 2009]


I *think* you're working on the recently uploaded GEDCOM of User:Fgdavis01. I saw all these early Colonial dupes just show up recently. Please hold on doing any further merges on this gedcom (if that's what you're doing). Dallan is going to delete the GEDCOM and tell the user to re-upload after the merge-upon-upload is ready. -- jillaine 10:08, 27 February 2009 (EST)

Mary Unknown [8 March 2009]

It seems a little odd to have the name given as Mary Opp on a page titled Person:Mary Unknown (4234) and involved in a marriage of Family:John Crandall and Mary Unknown (1).

Is there a reason you decided the more precise name isn't right? I didn't see any comments explaining why Mary Opp is wrong. Just because something isn't proven (surmising that is the reason), I am not sure that is sufficient to do this, since a comment that this is unproven would probably be enough to communicate this fact, and regardless of how poorly documented the claim is, there is always the presumption that the person they copied it from had a reason for thinking that name was correct.

I don't have any particular stake in this, not knowing either way, but unless this was a mistake during merging where the wrong page got used as a target (the history looks like it was a rename, not a merge), it seems only reasonable that at a minimum, a source should be supplied to change somebody else's data? That source would presumably show that Mary Opp couldn't have been John Crandall's wife, or provide the correct name. Otherwise, as I said, I think a comment on the marriage page that this is not proven might be sufficient?

--Jrich 16:08, 7 March 2009 (EST)

I still question removing the name, since you haven't really proven it is wrong, but at least I think you cite your source in a note on the page, or on the Talk page, to justify it, since at least it hints that somebody did an exhaustive search? --Jrich 17:59, 7 March 2009 (EST)

Hello Susan Irish & Jrich,

First Thank You for this discussion. I appreciate it.

Can I step in with a suggestion?

Could we put this wonderful paragraph or so on the disputed Mary Opp on her person page.

I had not heard about there being a problem with Mary Opp before this.

Can I also suggest as well we copy this over on to the Unknown wife's page as well.

Then add a link to each page Mary Opp, and unknown wife?

What do you think?

Debbie Freeman --DFree 22:40, 7 March 2009 (EST)

Early Winthrops [11 March 2009]

I see you've started doing some merging on at least a couple of early Winthrops. I started poking around and see that there's quite a bit of merging to do there still. But didn't want to step in if you were focused on this. Let me know if/how I can help you. -- jillaine 06:02, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

I just had a couple of sources, mostly information from the Dictionary of National Biography which I posted. If you have more info. and sources feel free to continue with the Winthrop cleanup. --Susan Irish 16:44, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

Sources needed [16 March 2009]

It is pretty much a matter of courtesy that if you are going to change a page, you should indicate what your data is based on. You changed the birth date of Person:Hannah Sherman (3) from Feb 1648 to 1647 and erased the source of the original data (an ancestral file) and put none. While you may not consider an ancestral file a good source, it is more than the source you gave. I agree with your change from point of view of fact, but making changes without putting sources is tantamount to having a shouting match, the loudest wins. That is not the precedent that needs to be set, as why would not the author be justified changing it back? Besides, one needs to ask, since there was an alternate birth given of 1647, did the change need to be made? It has all the earmarks of being a calendar error. --Jrich 00:51, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

The source doesn't belong on my Talk page, it belongs on Hannah Sherman's page.

ahem. then why didn't you start this conversation on Hannah Sherman's talk page instead of Susan's talk page? (Whatever one may think about it), common practice here appears to be that when people start a conversation on a WeRelate user's talk page, it goes back and forth between the respective user Talk pages. Seems like when there is a discrepancy or disagreement about a particular Person page, the conversation should take place on -- as you ultimate pointed out, jrich -- the talk page of (in this case) Hannah Sherman... -- jillaine 20:06, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
I started here because Susan made a couple of changes on pages I happened to get notified about, without giving sources. I am not arguing about Hannah Sherman but about Susan's practice of changing existing data without providing a source. I would not have complained a bit if there was a source provided to justify the change. Then I could have started a discussion on the Talk page about the validity of the source and other sources about Hannah. I might not even complained if she hadn't removed the AFN reference. But it is not right to reject somebody else's data, with a nominal source at least, without providing your own source. Look, nobody complains about Ancestral Files more than me, but there are some fraction of them that represent very good data (you just have to prove it all over for yourself.) --Jrich 21:37, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

If you don't have the title, perhaps it would be better not to make updates based on it until you can find out what it is. It may well be based on Rev. David Sherman's work on the Sherman Family, which was republished in Rhode Island Genealogies, but the research was done back in the late 1800s. He says Hannah was born in 1647. But it could certainly be some other source, too. Without the name of the source, nobody can assess how valid or dated the information may be.

The problem here, too, is that there seemed to be no thinking going on. You erased a more precise date "Feb 1648" in favor of the less precise "1647", apparently just because that was what the one source you used said, and despite the presence of an Alternate Birth date of 11 Feb 1647 which already informs people that 1647 is a possibility. Finally, all apparently without realizing that perhaps everybody is talking about the same date with different incomplete forms. For if the contemporaneous sources say Feb 1647, it would be the year 1648 in the modern calendar, but should actually be written Feb 1647/48, as is done for Hannah in Art Cohan's Sherman database ([3], Art being keeper of the SOY website). And Art cites his sources: JHS-91 John H. SHERMAN - four volumes pub. 1991 "Sherman Directories", and SHERM-68, which is, I suspect, using an old indicator for RVS-68 Roy V. SHERMAN - book pub. 1968 "Some of the Descendants of Philip Sherman, First Secretary of Rhode Island".

Finally quoting some secondary source is not all that useful unless it indicates what primary evidence the date is based on. So your date of 1647, even if you could remember the name of the book you saw it in, is not a great revelation unless it is explained why such an imprecise date is all we know, and how we know it. If it is an estimate or derived, it should say Abt. If it is not an estimate, why is it not more precise? --Jrich 18:59, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Could we please focus our disagreements not on each other's personalities, but on the data (or lack thereof)? I find your language here, Jrich, a bit harsh. Susan is one of the more active WeRelate users and I'm sure everything she does is well intentioned. Starting from such an understanding is far more likely to lead to productive collaboration. -- jillaine 20:06, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
I am interfering here. All of you are valuable oontributors to WeRelate. I saw no disagreement posed because of personality differences. The post was regarding the change in the date with the accompanied deletion of the source.--Beth 00:12, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
I was bringing this up entirely in the spirit of productive collaboration. Productive, meaning that each change should attempt to better the data through higher quality sources, more precision, more clarity. Collaboration, meaning the data is a shared resource and should be input to maximize its benefit to others. Yes, changing somebody's data without the benefit of any explanation (i.e., source) does seem a little incourteous to me, and yes I don't think this change was all that necessary (possibly a different form of the same date, duplicated the alternate birth date somewhat, less precision may indicate less validity, no basis provided). --Jrich 21:37, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Okay, let me "model" an alternative approach that gets at the same issues without accusing people of being discourteous and unthinking and that also promotes collaboration:

On the pertinent Person talk page:

"Hi Susan, I noticed you just changed HS's birth year from an AFN-sourced date to an unsourced date. When I make such changes, I include the source for the replaced date or at least make a notation as to my logic or reasoning for the change. What's yours in this case? Let me know if you need any help with this; I have a variety of source information on this Sherman branch-- some stronger than others."

jillaine 08:43, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

Sherman family [15 March 2009]

Hi Susan I am in possession of several pieces of info on the family, including the book "New Light on Henry Sherman" by Stratton.

A few years ago the Odding/Butter relationship was explained by "Thane" Sherman, at that time published on the "Sherman of Yaxley" website, now run by Art Cohen.

Suggest that you go to the site and then we will discuss this, OK?

Bonnie--Bboops 11:29, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Bonnie, is this the website you are referring to? [4] --Susan Irish 17:56, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

The Sherman's of Yaxley [15 March 2009]

I didn't know the soy site was still active. Type in the above to get the updated information.

Bonnie--Bboops 18:30, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Sorry to horn in, but it sounded interesting. I tried searching for "Butter" in the search SOYsite field. There were two articles returned that looked relevant. One was in issue April 1999 Vol. 4 - No. 3 (32 pgs), but this issue is not on-line. The other is Letter from Michael Wood and sounds like what is being referred to? --Jrich 19:50, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Asa Wilcox [17 March 2009]

Hi, Would you take a look at Asa Wilcox merge. It looks like Asa (3) and Asa (5) have very little in common. Also the spouse Matilda and Mary seem to be different women married to the same man. Do you know, are Matilda and Mary alternate possibilities for Asa's father's wife, or is one the first the other the second wife, one being the mother of Asa? Thanks, --sq 21:16, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

Asa Wilcox (b. 1802) had 2 wives, Mary and Matilda m. 1881 when he was age 78. This Asa was the son of Hezekiah Wilcox (2). Asa Wilcox b. abt. 1776 was the brother of Hezekiah (2); so Asa Wilcox (7) and Asa Wilcox (5) are identical. --Susan Irish 22:21, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

Richard Jackman (2) and (3) [19 March 2009]

Susan, I am new at this site. How do I connect/merge Richard Jackman (3) with your Richard Jackman (2)? I'm not even sure how we are supposed to communicate. Howard of HLJ411--HLJ411 17:05, 19 March 2009 (EDT)

Welcome Howard, This help page gives the directions and philosophy for merging. It sounds complicated to begin with but is really quite easy. To begin bring up one of the Richard Jackman's page. In the upper right corner there are a number of drop down menus, find "More" and select the "find duplicates option, find the correct name and number you are looking for and place a check mark in front of it and then click "compare." Then use the information on the Help page to continue through the process. If you think you made a mistake, there is an "undo" option. --Susan Irish 17:30, 19 March 2009 (EDT)

James Jackman [27 March 2009]

Susan, I just merged my James Jackman (5 Sep 1686) with yours. Hope it's OK. Howard--HLJ411 16:21, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

Howard, I changed the locations of birth and death of Richard and James to the WeRelate preferred format; town, county, state, country -- use full names and no "caps" --Susan Irish 16:31, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

Unfortunately all my Legacy files are cap for the county and abbreviations for state/province and country so the gedcoms will continue to be a problem. I use caps for counties in Legacy to make it clear to me that it is a county and not a town with the same name. When I see only caps I know that I don't know the town yet. Another format that bothered me was town-township-county-province-country. Hopefully things will be standardized eventually. Howard--HLJ411 21:53, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

Ann Ladd [9 April 2009]

Hi Susan,

My info came from the Pane-Joyce Genealogy on the web at

When I started to sight her source, I found that all it said was "New Haven Vital Records"; no Vol or Page #, so I hesitated until I could look myself. If you prefer, I'll remove the surname until I find the record she's quoting. By the way, I descend down to a grgrgrmo in the Bunnell line. I recently lost all my genealogy work of 20 years, and am trying to piece together everything, mostly by memory.--Neal Gardner 11:37, 9 April 2009 (EDT)

Hi Neal,
Sorry to hear of your genealogy loss. Thank you for the link to the Payne-Joyce web site. There is a lot of great research there. The New Haven Vital Records only give Ann's first name and date of death I believe. Using this website as a source until something better is located is a fine. I descend from Lydia Bonnell and Francis French. --Susan Irish 17:30, 9 April 2009 (EDT)

John Durham and Ann Senter [19 April 2009]

Thank you for the information regarding John and Ann Durham. I'm not yet very well versed in using and it took a while to find out how to thank you. I was aware that they had eventually made their way to MO but I had no details. This info increases my own knowledge base and it's appreciated.--Svenska 21:11, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

Nice Clean-up, Susan [1 May 2009]

Thanks for the great clean-up you're doing on early New England colonists. Looks good.

--jillaine 08:13, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

Peter Crandall (14) [23 May 2009]

When you merged Peter Crandall (17) into Peter Crandall (14), why did you keep the birthdate from 17 which had no source, and throw away the birthdate from 14 which did have a source? --Jrich 00:52, 23 May 2009 (EDT)

your merge gives parents to Margaret Fitz Randolph (2) [1 June 2009]

You have merged pages that now give Margaret Fitz Randolph (2) different parents than I have. I had marked her Family page Abraham Vail and Margaret Fitz Randolph (1) as "no merge with Abraham Vail and Margaret Fitz Randolph (2)" but forgot to mark her person page, so you have merged pages that gives different parent but with NO SOURCES. It's too late tonight to work on it, but I would like to go in tomorrow and record the parents I have with sources - but I don't know what to do now with the unsourced parents you have added.

I have Margaret's parents as Edward Fitz Randolph and Phoebe Jackson. I have good sources for Edward and Phoebe, but proving the Margaret who married Abraham Vail is their dau may be problematic. My sources are only someone else's work.

Also I notice her birth date is a year or two different from what I have. I cannot tell if this is a result of adding info from the merged pages or if this is what Ssmith525 originally uploaded and I just hadn't noticed the difference.

These Quakers named so many of their children with the same names that it is difficult to sort them out! So how do we work this out? --Janiejac 01:19, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

Janie, Sounds like "unmerge" would be the best way to go and then you can mark the person page as "no merge." You can do the "unmerge" or I can as you prefer. My connection to Fitz Randolph comes farther down the line when "Fitz" was no longer used. --Susan Irish 17:10, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
OK. Just to be sure, I went to 'compare' Abrahm Vail and Margaret Fitz Randolph (1) and (2) and sure enough, my 'no merge' shows well on the family page but is not on Margaret's page. And when comparing Margaret Fitz Randolph (7) and Margaret Fitz Randolph (2), they do have different parents and ages. I'd feel more comfortable if you would do the 'unmerge'. I've never tried that yet. And when that is done, I'll put a 'no merge' on Margaret (7). --Janiejac 18:31, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
now I am confused. The merge I made was Robert Fitz Randolph and Catherine Taylor (1) and Robert Fitz Randolph and Catharine Taylor (1). During the merge daughter Margaret Fitz Randolph (5) was merged into Margaret Fitz Randolph (2). This merge did not affect Margaret Fitz Randolph (7). Do you want me to undo the Robert & Catherine Merge? or just remove parents from Margaret Fitz Randolph (2)? --Susan Irish 19:02, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
Susan, you do not need to do anything. Trying to figure out what happened that I got a merge msg and saw what didn't look right to me. I must have 'watched' the Abraham Vail and Margaret Fitz Randolph (1) page by default when I put the 'no merge' msg on it. That's the only thing I can figure out. Anyway, things look good to me now and I've put 'no merge' msgs on both family pages and the two Margaret pgs and the 2 Abraham pags. So I think it's covered. And I'm not 'watching' the wrong set anymore! My, how easy it is to get messed up!

Parker & Hall edits [4 June 2009]


I just wanted to say Thank you for your edits on the Parker and Hall families. --DFree 22:10, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Mercy or Marcy Cottrell [14 June 2009] Hi Susan, On the above page and on some of the connecting pages both Mercy and Marcy are used. Should it really be Mercy? I can correct for you but since it was more than once thought I would check. Thanks for your on-going diligence. Sheri--Sheri 07:29, 14 June 2009 (EDT)

Wikipedia as a content source... [18 June 2009]

It appears that you are removing the wikipedia content source template from a number of pages. The purpose is to fill in wikipedia content without burdensome hand-operations, and the turn-around is about a week. Were you aware of this...???? --Jrm03063 22:19, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

Hi, The link to wikipedia was already there. What you added was redundant. --Susan Irish 22:20, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

The two pieces are not redundant, they serve different purposes.

The source entry documents the facts, the content entry provides a target that will be filled in with body content from the wikipedia page (typically done on Sunday PMs, by a werelate agent).

--Jrm03063 11:50, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

May I request that you review Proposed_Guidelines_for_use_of_Wikipedia?--Jrm03063 11:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

wikipedia "content" entry [18 June 2009]

I definitely see how the terminology can lead to confusion.

You correctly observe that, at least initially, the content entry provides nothing that the source entry doesn't provide. However, on a weekly basis (Sunday afternoons presently), Dallan runs a werelate "agent" that replaces the content template entry with two new templates. The first is a custom template that is created expressly to hold the initial section of the wikipedia article. The second is a wikipedia content copyright notice.

So, a page like Person:Domhnall, Earl of Lennox (1), is automatically turned into a page like Person:William Stanley, 6th Earl of Derby (1). Also notice, when looking at the content for William Stanley, that the links to William's parents (in the page body - not the WR margin) are not WP links, but rather, WR links. The WP template created by the agent's processing of the content template, recognizes that there is an association between and Person:William Stanley, 6th Earl of Derby (1).--Jrm03063 15:00, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

I kind of agree with Susan, it seems redundant. I read the explanation, and look at the examples, and I still don't see the need for two entries. It is clear that the automatically-included information is being drawn from wikipedia, so it would seem that a separate source citation would not be necessary. If, on the other hand, wikipedia is being specifically cited as a source to justify a WeRelate fact in preference to other sources, then it suffers from the same shortcoming as any other website, namely, it may change, and end up being cited as the source for a fact it no longer supports. If the wikipedia is a properly cited article, it seems it would be better to cite the primary sources given by wikipedia, (including appropriate credit to wikipedia for doing the research). Presumably the primary sources won't change, and will continue to support the fact in WeRelate, even if Wikipedia changes. If somebody changes the facts in WeRelate, then hopefully they will add the new primary sources that justify it, perhaps again distilled from Wikipedia research, perhaps independently of it. --Jrich 15:32, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

The practice of having both entries was something that Amelia requested and justified. Dallan concurred and I accepted their judgement. I believe Taylor is also following this practice this Summer (as doubtless required by Dallan). Others did weigh in on the practice too, and I wrote that all up as best I could in the WP guidelines document - which was also reviewed and critiqued by a number of folks.

If you think the guidelines are wrong, feel free to open a discussion on the watercooler. But please understand that there are/were reasons for doing things this way, and they are not my independent or arbitrary creations.--Jrm03063 16:28, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Brownells brickwall [14 July 2009]

Hi Susan, I've been enjoying working with you over the last few days. Anyway, so there I was last night, reading Little Compton Families and updating Brownells (sometimes in error, sorry), happily working my way down to where the Brownells connect with the Slocums in my lineage... and then I got stuck. Turns out the Stephen Brownell that I had assumed connected via daughter Mary to Capt. Charles Slocum may not be the right Stephen Brownell.

I hoped you might have some insight into this dilemma, as you are clearly really knowledgeable about the families of this area. The family I connect with is Family:Charles Slocum and Mary Brownell (1), and the record of their marriage says Mary is the daughter of Stephen. Mary is born about 1784. My notes say in Fall River, but I don't have a source cited for that, so it may or may not be true.

Age-wise, if her father is in this tree, it would seem more likely to be Stephen Brownell the Rev. War vet, from his first marriage to Cynthia Wilbor. But I haven't found records of their children, if any. Do you have any insight into who my Stephen and Mary might be?

Thanks,-Brenda--kennebec1 07:15, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

Hi Brenda, On page 89 of Little Compton Births and Deaths Arnold says that Mary Eldredge was the 2nd wife of Stephen Brownell and no children are listed for them. Just above is listed Stephen Brownell b. 29 Nov 1726 and Edith Wilbor his wife and their list of children ending with Stephen b. March 18, 1762. So we see Stephen Brownell b. Nov. 29, 1726, m(1) 1747 Edith Wilbor and m(2) 1771 Mary Eldredge.
Arnold says the Stephen Brownell who married Cynthia Wibor in 1784 was the son of Stephen and Elcy (Edith?). I don't find any children for this couple in the Little Compton births.
So my conclusion is that your Mary Brownell b. 1784 was the daughter of Stephen and Cynthia and was born in MA or at least not in Little Compton. Would this work for you?

I have many ancestors from the Dartmouth to Westerly and Stonington area and have found cousins kept marrying cousins over and over down the lines. I did purchase copies of Arnold's Vols. 4 & 5 from Higginson Books which had/has a print to order business. However, both of my books from them are missing pages. I always enjoy working with "cousins" and trying to sort out RI families. --Susan Irish 13:41, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

Walford family [20 July 2009]

Good Evening I have not reseached for a few years but can add to this line.How are you connected? Thanking you for your time Mark Walford.--Walfie 14:02, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

Mary Mansell [19 August 2009]

Thank you for your comment on the Mary Mansell (wife of John Thomas) page I put online. I am a descendant through her daughter, Mary Mansell Thomas, who married John Palmer. This couple emigrated to the US, originally settling in Missouri, then Illinois and finally California. They had two children who lived to adulthood: Robert Henry Palmer (my great-grandfather) who settled in Texas, and John Palmer, who settled in California with his parents.

We have just barely started on this line, and have notes written in 1923 that state "Father’s mother, Mary Williams, had two brothers and seven sisters. One brother, named Marsel/Mansell V. Williams was a machnist in the government plant in New Zealand, married the first white child born in New Zealand." One can see they had Mary's name wrong (the family didn't obtain the wedding records until the 1960's).

I have Mary's birth record and wedding record from the UK, if this would be useful to you.

Any information you have on this line would be welcome to us.--Mitzymoo 17:08, 19 August 2009 (EDT)

mansell cadoxton juxta neath [28 August 2009]

contact he is researching ELIZABETH MANSELL CADOXTON JUXTA NEATH christened 23 may 1819 FATHER GEORGE mother MARY JENKINS--Moggs 15:29, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

Adding sources now [7 September 2009]

Hi Susan, I noticed that you are adding sources. The source pages are being revised and one will have to redo their source citations after the revision is complete. You may want to wait on adding additional sources until this project is completed. See this: [5]. --Beth 23:05, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

Hi Susan [12 September 2009]

Hey there... I thought I should say hello. I'm the one who caused the stink about source citations and such. My name is Amelia J. (88buckaroo, but I have to change that user name : ) As you may know, I'm a new user here, and in the course of asking many newbie questions, I was saying that I was using the featured pages as examples of how to do things. I, of course, looked at your great page about Edgar Irish. I was trying to figure out how to see the source citations for your page and so I asked. It never occurred to me that the text on his page was all written by you. Amazing. Because I'm not much of a writer, I mistakenly assumed that it had come out of some text about Mr. Irish. My hapless question was just an attempt to understand how to do source citations. anyway... I was really impressed with the sources you added later. Quite comprehensive and it made me realize that you were the author of the text on Mr. Irish's page. wonderful stuff.

I just thought I would let you know that it was my inadvertent stumbling that led to anyone questioning your page, which obviously deserves to be featured.

I think life will be more comfortable when I grow out of my newbie status : ) nice to meet you, Amelia J.--88buckaroo 16:14, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Viner family [14 October 2009]

Dear Susan,

I'm a very new visitor to We Relate - brought here by a Google search while digging up Viners. I haven't quite managed to work out how to navigate around the site properly, so this may seem a silly question:

How do you relate to the Viners? My mother-in-law, Monique Viner was a descendant of Charles of Bath, through his son Henry Lewis, perfumer, Lewis Henry, and then Hugh, her father.

I'd be very interested to know more. And what became of the descendants of Charles's son, William Litton Viner (Letton in DNB) in England and USA.

I look forward to hearing from you. Charles in Stratford-upon-Avon, Warwickshire, UK.--CFMWright 06:24, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

Woodworth family [30 October 2009]


I saw that you merged some of my family and I thank you. I'm still learning how to do this. Are you related to this Woodworth line?

Kathy Moran Wisconsin--Acorn104 23:22, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

About to import GedCom [2 November 2009]

Hi Susan - I'm about to import a gedcom that impacts alot of the names you've recently updated (Slocum, Seabury). I've tried VERY HARD to not add any duplicate items or names, and to not add a bunch of not-useful sources. But I apologize in advance if something goes awry in the import (which I probably won't complete until later in the week) and I make a mess of any of your great recent work on these pages. I'll do my best to clean up after myself... the Gedcom import process seems to be much better than it used to be, so hopefully all will go well. But let me know if I need to do anything after the import to clean up any extra data/duplicate names/etc. Thanks - --Brenda (kennebec1) 11:01, 2 November 2009 (EST)

Removed East Cemetery from Root burial listing ?

Wondering why you removed East Cemetery from the Burial info for Salmon Root family. This is my direct line and I created the East Cemetery page specifically for them. What gives ?--Neal Gardner 11:22, 2 November 2009 (EST)

Mansells [28 December 2009]

Hi Susan,

I'm finally able to get back to the Mansell line. I'm descended from Elizabeth Mansell's daughter, Mary Mansell. I believe Mary was illegitimate, but have no way to prove it. The birth registry lists John Thomas as the father, and his occupation as "fitter upper" Elizabeth and John were not living together in the 1841 census, and Mary's name is given as Mary Mansell. Elizabeth later married John Williams, and this caused us no end of confusion as Mary sometimes put Williams in her name and other times didn't.

Anyway, I see that you kindly put up the information from a church record cd. Would you mind sending me an exact transcript plus the title of the cd to me for all the Mansell records you put online? I would really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Margaret Rutledge (Mitzy Moo)--Mitzymoo 19:58, 27 December 2009 (EST)

Large-scale clean-up of colonial lines [11 January 2010]

Hi, Susan--- This is just in the way of a heads-up. I've been putting off uploading my last GEDCOM because it's all colonial (Mass/Conn & Dutch) and I knew there would be a lot of overlap with existing pages. But I finally took a deep breath the other day and did it. Now I'm beginning to go through that 1,200+ people in FTE, cleaning up each page in turn. (I've done that with every GEDCOM I've uploaded, which is why it takes me awhile. I hate drive-by GEDCOM-ing.) My watchlist this morning shows a bunch of pages you've already begun working on, too, of some people we have in common, so I just wanted to let you know it's only just begun, and where all that stuff is coming from all of a sudden. I'm also taking the opportunity to match-and-merge all those multiple Person & Family pages that keep showing up on the search results list, esp for the New Netherlands folks. I'm not in a hurry, so you'll probably have an enlarged watchlist for awhile. And, of course, feel free to keep right on doing what you're doing. Maybe together we can bring some sort of order to this chaos. . . . --Mike 12:48, 1 January 2010 (EST)

Thanks Mike for the "heads-up" I had noticed that we have a common interest in a number of families. --Susan Irish 16:29, 1 January 2010 (EST)
I'm researching colonial New England, too-- mostly Massachusetts with some Connecticut. I haven't seen any cross over of your pages (both of you) with mine just yet, but I'm glad to know that this is going on in the background. Jillaine 19:20, 1 January 2010 (EST)
UPDATE: I am now noticing the cross over with both of you. You're showing up on my watchlist now. Susan, I have a request: would you please use the Edit Summary when you make changes? My watchlist is huge and it helps when scanning to read the Edit Summary. Thanks! Jillaine 10:29, 11 January 2010 (EST)

Mary Stream citations [16 January 2010]

Hi Susan,

What a coincidence that we're citing the same person today. I'm sitting here with copies of 'The Baldwin Genealogy 1500 to 1881' trying to clean up and add info on the BALDWINs. --Neal Gardner 15:28, 16 January 2010 (EST)

Solomon Baker [1 May 2010]

Hi Susan

I have been trying to find the parents of Solomon Baker, b 1750 (RI), m Lydia Kenyon 1770, Richmond, RI.

I do have a Solomon Baker b 1750 in Beekman, NY, son of John Baker and Elizabeth Adams.

Also, I have the Trial of Solomon for Treason, Hung in Poughkeepse NY 1783, for Treason.

Do you have anything in your files that could help sort these guys out?

Thanks Bonnie (Baker) Weber--Bboops 08:38, 1 May 2010 (EDT)

Change of birth of Sarah Currier [19 May 2010]

Hi Susan,

The birthdate for Sarah Currier of "Aft 1685" does not fit with a marriage date of 1689 and the birth of their only child Hope Rogers in 1690. Where did this information come from ? --Neal Gardner 09:38, 19 May 2010 (EDT)

Henry Flannery and Alice Booth - Aunt Ida, Margeret, Harry, etc. [25 May 2010]

--Vanbookie 11:51, 25 May 2010 (EDT) Susan,

I am another Kirlin related to Henry Flannery via Harry Foster, my great-grandfather. Are you working directly with the Kirlin line. I am working on that direct line.

I've been thru Henry Flannery's farmhouse several times now and in Douglassville several times.

George Kirlin

ROSSER [8 September 2010]

Hi Susan My name is Tony Rosser and I have research on the same Rosser's you have recorded in a big tree.

Be interested to hear from you.

Kind Regards Tony Rosser

Website.... 04:48, 28 July 2010 (EDT)

Susan, I see you deleted abt from the birthdate for Frances Foote. Do you have information on her specific birth year, or was the deletion accidental?--Scot 17:57, 8 September 2010 (EDT)

Kingdom of England [9 September 2010]

This bogus placename is the result of a GEDCOM upload by user DonEThom. I got a couple of dozen notices of page edits by him that consisted solely of replacing Place:England with Place:Kingdom of England. When I looked at the current page, it seemed they were redirecting back to Place:England.--Scot 10:59, 9 September 2010 (EDT)

McClare and Winthrope [13 September 2010]


How are you connected to the McClare family? I have done a full history on them.

Gail--Tjemcee 08:55, 13 September 2010 (EDT)

Sherman/Shearman [24 September 2010]

I added Shearman as a related name to Surname:Sherman. It may take a couple of hours but searching should soon work with either form. Of course, it doesn't hurt to add it explicitly, though, anybody that does any research on Shermans should already be aware that this was a common spelling variant. --Jrich 12:48, 24 September 2010 (EDT)

David Lee Moore [20 October 2010]

I noticed your revision on David Lee Moore, adding his Date of death. I've been told that there was an OBIT in the paper and wondered if yu had that OBIT. If so, May I have a copy of it?


Jim--Tarbet 17:25, 20 October 2010 (EDT)

Newtons [21 October 2010]

Susan, You have obviously been around this WIKI long enough to know what you're doing. I'm new to it. Could you explain what's going on with the gedcom I uploaded on the Newton's, and what am I supposed to do with all the changes that are happening?

Thank you for your help

Jim--Tarbet 05:35, 21 October 2010 (EDT)

Lewis [18 December 2010]

I noticed you were doing "cleanup." Am I doing something creating problems?--frothingham 17:10, 18 December 2010 (EST)

Mary Bunker [20 December 2010]

There is no real evidence that Person:Mary Bunker (7) was born in Nantucket, since her birth is just listed in William C. Folger's records, and not in the actual town records. Further, stories about her father suggest the family was living in Topsfield at the time she would have been born. Source:Sinnott, Mary Elizabeth. Annals of the Sinnott, Rogers, Coffin, Corlies, Reeves, Bodine and Allied Families (on, p. 73, says Mary's father's probate files in Essex County list among the children Mary age 6 as well as Elizabeth, William, Ann, and Martha. Now, Newburyport is not Topsfield, but I have not found her birth listed in either place so never bothered to change it, being at least the right county. Perhaps it should just say Essex, Massachusetts, United States? --Jrich 09:59, 20 December 2010 (EST)

Good point. Perhaps it is best not to add location to the name pages for people from the Nantucket Vital Records who only have PR38 as a source until more family information is located. --Susan Irish 13:09, 20 December 2010 (EST)

Thank you - Civil War veterans categories [9 April 2011]

Hi Susan! I just saw that you added some of the new Civil War veterans categories. Thank you! I'm sure that this will greatly aid people who are researching CW vets, especially if they're looking for those from a specific unit. If you don't mind me asking, how did you find them so quickly? We just started adding them this morning.-- Amy (Ajcrow) 14:43, 9 April 2011 (EDT)

6th Michigan Cavalry Regiment - Civil War [11 April 2011]

George Washington Alford was in Company D of the 6th Michigan Infantry Regiment; he enlisted on 20 Aug 1861 and died at Baton Rouge, LA, from wounds he received in action at the Battle of Port Hudson on 28 July 1863. Aged 29. He is buried in the Baton Rouge National Cemetery, the original one in the city. His name is misspelled there: Alfred.

Sorry, I don't know how to insert this information into the "Category" you created for this regiment.

Regards, James Gunn--Gunnj 21:33, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks again [21 April 2011]

Hi, Susan. I saw that you're adding the "new" version of the Civil War categories. Thank you! Sorry for any confusion. It wasn't until we started the categories that we realized we were going to run into trouble if we started similar categories for the Mexican-American War or the Spanish-American War, as all 3 wars named the regiments in the same style. Hence, we needed to specify which war we were talking about. Wish we would have thought about that before we started adding the categories :-) -- Amy (Ajcrow) 16:16, 21 April 2011 (EDT)

Harkness [16 June 2011]

Hey Susan, I'm very new to this (today) so forgive me if this sounds like a dumb question. But I was wondering how you got all of the information you put up on the family of James Harkness and his son John Harkness? Some of the info you had I haven't been able to find, but then a lot of it isn't filled out. So I guess, I was wondering if you are related to the Harkness' or how you came across the info. Thank you.--JWashington 01:12, 16 June 2011 (EDT)

Elizabeth Dewey (1) & (10) [21 June 2011]

Hi Susan,

I see you merged Elizabeth DEWEY (10) with Elizabeth Dewey (1) which proposes that Elizabeth gave birth to a WEBSTER child in the middle of having a dozen NOBLE children. A little farfetched ? Any backup for this ? Who has the incorrect Elizabeth DEWEY ? Cordially..--Neal Gardner 13:28, 21 June 2011 (EDT)

I suspect I would have done the same merge. You had two Elizabeth Dewey pages with the exact same birth and death dates. Separate marriages to be sure, but one had no date, so the overlap wasn't obvious. It could have been two marriages of the same person. Neither page added the extra little help that a source citation can give. Thinking through how the merge process works, the 10 Noble kids would fill up one column and the Webster kid would be way at the bottom because he did not match. So it would have been far from obvious that it didn't mean the same person, especially given how often pages are entered into WeRelate straight from AFNs or Ancestry trees and include such errors. --Jrich 19:20, 21 June 2011 (EDT)

Klaas Bakker [16 July 2011]

Hi Susan, I noticed the conversation on Lena Denadel's page about cremation and burial information being combined on Find A Grave. I am wondering if this might also apply to your edits on Klaas Bakker's page. You recorded that Klaas was buried as Gerrit Klaas Bakker in Monumenta Cemetery, but Find A Grave has a photo of his gravestone in Montana (as well as an empty listing in Washington). --Jennifer (JBS66) 05:57, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

Margaret Hubbard [26 July 2011]

You just wiped out a half hour of work removing caps.--jaques1724 00:05, 26 July 2011 (EDT)

Charles Morris-White [21 August 2011]

The Van-Fraser Heritage Club is an association of long-service and retired Canada Post employees in the Vancouver area. One of our goals is to honour the memory of those Canada Post employees who served in the Canadian Armed Forces in WWI and WWII.

In the Autumn of 2009 workmen, conducting renovations in the Main Lobby of the Vancouver Post Office, located a plaque honouring Vancouver Post Office employees who had volunteered for service in WWI and WWII and were killed. One of the names on the plaque was Charles Morris-White who was a Letter Carrier at the time of his enlisment. He served as a driver in the 1st Brigade, Canadian Garrison Artillery.

On November 10, 2010 the plaque was rededicated by the Regional General Manager, Mike Shearon and Lt. Col. Acconci, Deputy Commander, 39th Brigade, Canadian Army.

Our research has determine he was survived by a son, Thomas Charles Morris White of Vancouver, who died July 17, 1985. We are attempting to locate further family members.

If you would like any additional information or have any you may be able to share with us please contact us at

Jim Bain Van Fraser Heritage Club--Vanfrasernews 12:13, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

Sylvia Mansfield [31 August 2011]

Hi ...I was so happy to find the pictures of my great-great Grandmother Sylvia Mansfield. I was able to visit her grave in July of 2011. What is your interest in her?

Thanks, Mary Balow--Chatfield 21:15, 30 August 2011 (EDT)

Sylvia... [1 September 2011]

Hi Susan.. Thank you so very much for writing back so quickly. Did you post all the Pattridge pictures that are found on here? They are amazing.

So, you are descendant from Sylvia's son Albert, well, I am descendant from Sylvia's daughter, Caroline Pattridge Heydon. Caroline married my great-grandpa- Horatio H. Heydon and they lived in Chatfield MN. They had a son Claude, my grandfather, and Claude and Rose had my dad, Morris Heydon. All of those folks are buried in Chatfield MN.

This summer my sis and I went to "Grandma" Sylvia's grave. I have photos of all of the grave stones that we found there. They include Sylvia's sister Achsabell.

Where do you live? I moved from MN in 2003 to NC. However, all of my roots are in Minnesota.

THanks again for writing. Would love to collaborate. My regular email is: 20:29, 31 August 2011 (EDT)

Patrollers group [12 September 2011]

Hi Susan, your user rights have been updated and you are now in the "Patrollers" Group. There is a bit more information about this here. To have your edits automatically marked as patrolled, please go to Settings>Editing and check "Mark edits I make as patrolled". Let me know if you have any questions, --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:25, 12 September 2011 (EDT)

Horatio Heydon [24 October 2011]

Hi Susan.

Have been trying to remember something about Chatfield MN and my great grandpa Horatio Heydon. He was one of the mayors of Chatfield. They have a history museum there with donated items as well as portraits of the former mayors. That is where I've seen a picture of Horatio.

Hope you are well, Mary Heydon Balow--Chatfield 20:33, 23 October 2011 (EDT)

Jedediah Irish [3 November 2011]

Hi - Just trying to figure out all this genealogy stuff, but if I am doing it correctly (which I believe I am), Jedediah Irish born 1688 was my grandfather (x9)--Tbw10567 15:05, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

Osborne [18 November 2011]

Why are you changing details on my family tree--Spookie121 15:52, 18 November 2011 (EST)

Montagu Obituary Transcription [24 November 2011]

Saw the image you added and took advantage of it, as I've been looking for an opportunity to create a "good" example of how to handle an obituary transcript. Would appreciate your thoughts, I've started the discussion at [6]. Thanks!--jrm03063 15:34, 24 November 2011 (EST)

Keyes' [31 December 2011]

Hi Susan, I have just found your information on we relate. John Keyes is my ggg grandfather. I have a feeling we may have contacted each other before?! I have some additional information if you wanted it. How are you connected?

Dona Keyes

PS: sorry email sounds a bit disconnected - trying to multi task!--Dona Keyes 20:50, 30 December 2011 (EST)

Keyes' [9 January 2012]

Hi - thanks. It was just that your name was a Watcher on the Keyes page. Do you how to find out who put the information on? I noticed it was also connected to the Rogers that are also in my tree?

thanks Dona Keyes--Dona Keyes 04:40, 9 January 2012 (EST)

Lucy Hannah Unknown [11 January 2012]

Hello, Susan! Thank you for tidying up Lucy Hannah Unknown and her family the other day. Did you see the question I asked on the talk page? Do you have any info, or were you just tidying up in general? (There's still a lot of tidying up to be done in the New Amsterdam families like the Quicks, I'm sure.) BTW, where piped places existed which omitted the "United States" for events before 1776, I had been leaving them. Which is why that one was there. --Pkeegstra 09:32, 11 January 2012 (EST)

Tjoelkers in Whatcom County [18 January 2012]


Many thanks for all the help with the Tjoelkers so far! I found 3 more children for Charles/Tije and Antje/Anne Tjoelker, but since they were born after 1900 the system won't let me add them without a death date. By any chance, do you have death dates for Bessie (b 1905), Martje/Martha (b. 1911), or Edna (b. 1921)? --Pkeegstra 09:47, 15 January 2012 (EST)

Did Martha marry her brother-in-law's nephew? This page for her brother-in-law's brother mentions a son Nicholas who was born in California and dies in Lansing, MI. Is that Martha's husband? --Pkeegstra 16:37, 17 January 2012 (EST)

I made pages for both of the Nicholas Roordas (Nicholas Roorda (1913-2000) and Nicholas Roorda (1924-1982)) but haven't linked either with Martha for now. But the younger one would be kinda young to be marrying in 1936, right? --Pkeegstra 12:36, 18 January 2012 (EST)

Since Nicholas Roorda (1913-2000) died in the same city as Martha I think he was her husband. --Susan Irish 13:39, 18 January 2012 (EST)
The combination of the two pieces of evidence sounds good to me. I just made the link. Thanks! --Pkeegstra 14:40, 18 January 2012 (EST)

Lincolns in Thurston County [19 January 2012]

That's an amazing find! I was a bit skeptical how my girlfriend's great-great-aunt got from Wiscasset, Maine literally to the other side of the country, but it's all explained here, along with a pair of Mary's brothers who match identically the Lincoln family Bible. (Are there Washington State burials for Foster and Nathaniel?)

BTW, interesting that the Crosbys have a Chillingsworth Foster connection, since so do the Lincolns. (And I think I was misreading the father Nathaniel Foster as the first spouse and getting confused that he married Mary Lincoln while Ruby Foster was still alive.) --Pkeegstra 09:38, 19 January 2012 (EST)

BTW, FindAGrave records that the death of Nathaniel Crosby in Hong Kong happened 17 Dec 1856. --Pkeegstra 15:55, 19 January 2012 (EST)

Simeon Williams [19 January 2012]

Hi Susan I am new to Werelate and still figuring out what's what. I would love to share info about Simeon Williams, son of Samuel and Lois Allyn Williams. I have lots on his descendants but struggling to find the maiden name of his wife. Kate--K8renn 15:42, 19 January 2012 (EST)

Hello Kate, For some reason your "talk page" is not accessible which is where I would be responding to you. I was doing "clean up" on the GEDCOM uploaded by genealogist84 who is no longer active on WeRelate. Please do add additional information on the families.--Susan Irish 16:31, 19 January 2012 (EST)

Charles C. Grinnell [22 January 2012]


First time using this site but had some discrepencies with some of this info. Charles C. Grinnell's (24 nov 1857) oldest daughter was my great grandmother Alice Grinnell Hanson Laird. I knew her as a young boy. In the 1900 census I find his wife Delia living with her children (except Alice, who had just married) at 248 silver st in Boston. In the same apt were her parents John and Ellen Leahon (age 69 and 65). I have their marriage certificate and a small photo of Ellen.

This website shows Delia's maiden name as Lane, yet her parents were Leahon and she was born after they were married. It also shows Delias parents as John and Mary.

Can you help straighten this out? There was a story from my grandmother years ago that her family traced back to a bridget Lane from Ireland. My grandmother is long gone (Edna Hanson Sawyer...Alice's older daughter) and we have no other info on this.

Thank you, Drew Sawyer--Drew Sawyer 13:50, 22 January 2012 (EST)

Hello Drew, For some reason your "talk page" is not accessible which is where I would be responding to you. Please contact the Admin. who assisted you in joining WeRelate to solve this problem. Thanks, --Susan Irish 15:02, 22 January 2012 (EST)
Drew's talk page is accessible, it's just that nobody has welcomed him yet so there are no entries (hence the red-link). A message can still be left on the talk page by clicking on Add topic. --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:08, 22 January 2012 (EST)

Charles Grinnell [23 January 2012]

Hi Susan,

I hope you can respond to me on this now. Charles Grinnell was my great great grandfather. His oldest daughter, Alice May was my greatgrandmother and I knew her when I was a child. The 1900 census shows Charles' wife Delia living at 248 Sliver street Boston along with her daughters and son (Except Alice whom had just married Albert Hanson)and her (Delia's) parents John and Ellen Leahon. I have John and Ellen's marriage cert and a photo of Ellen. However your sight shows Delia's maiden name as Lane, our records show as Leahon. Any idea why the difference? A story that came down thru Edna Sawyer (Alice's oldest grandmother) was thet her family came down from a Bridget Lane of Ireland. Now I am confused! Any ideas? Drew Sawyer Sawyer 13:51, 23 January 2012 (EST)

As a watcher of Susan's page (our research area overlap somewhat), I saw your first post and checked the source that was cited on the page Family:Charles Grinnell and Delia Lane (1), which is Source:Massachusetts, United States. Vital Records, 1841–1910. What is posted in WeRelate reflects what is found on the scanned record of marriages in the town of Boston for 1879. Note: this source is a series of scanned images of records housed at the Massachusetts State Archives, viewable as part of the website. From the description: "records were originally kept at the town level and a copy was sent to the state." Apparently, whether intentionally or not, her name was recorded as "Lane", and the parents are listed as "John and Mary". Of course any single record can always be wrong, which is why collaboration in WeRelate holds so much promise. It sounds like you have documents to show this is in error (i.e., that Ellen is not a second wife), so they need to be cited and the data updated. Presumably the page would be renamed, but if so, I would think Delia Lane should be left as an alternate name to retain its findability for others who may not be aware of the other sources. --Jrich 14:37, 23 January 2012 (EST)
The same source (p. 143:55) lists the birth on 16 Sep 1861, in Boston, of "Elzrie Leahon", a female, to parents John and Ellen. The residence of parents is listed as "Athens", occupation of father is laborer, and birthplace of both parents is Ireland. Could be what the E. in Delia E. Lane stands for? --Jrich 14:55, 23 January 2012 (EST)

Speedy delete [23 January 2012]

Hi, first thanks for all your efforts at WR. It is greatly appreciated. Two things--you put a number of pages into speedy delete as living people. 1) Would you please note in the explanation field why you believe these people are living. 2) It would save me a lot of time if you would put the date you mark the page for speedy delete in the explanation field. I have to give people a few days to respond before I delete the pages. Soooo, I have to check the history for each and every page before I can delete it unless that info is in the notice. Thanks so much, --sq 18:46, 23 January 2012 (EST)

Solveig and Susan, often, when users mark pages for SD, they mark only the Person page. However, I notice that both spouses of a family could be deleted, but their nearly empty family page will remain (for example Family:Unknown and Alma Unknown (1)). It's tough for the person working down the list of speedy deletes, because you aren't able to see the big picture of why a page was marked in the first place, if you're only able to look at the Person page. What I mean is, if you look at a page like Person:Lamont Unknown (1), you can't tell why they would have been placed in SD because the page for his mother has already been deleted. --Jennifer (JBS66) 19:08, 23 January 2012 (EST)

William L. & son John Queen Additional info. [20 February 2012]

Susan, I have added some census info and the SSDI info on these two people. You might be interested in this information after your recent changes. Jim--Tarbet 20:07, 19 February 2012 (EST)

Pilon in Whatcom County [8 March 2012]

Hi, Susan! Bensinnema just drew attention to the Pilon family in Whatcom County. Could we perhaps get you interested in helping out trying to characterize the Netherlands-born Pilons I found in the 1930 census and listed on Ben's page. I remember you were extremely helpful with the Tjoelkers and the Lincolns. --Pkeegstra 11:51, 27 February 2012 (EST)

Hi, I find a short list of Pilon people buried in Monumenta Cemetery. The oldest members of the family appear to be Jacob J. Pilon b 23 Dec 1843 Stedum and wife Hilje Werkman b 28 Jun 1853. There is also a Gerrit J. T. Pilon b 1 Mar 1891 Dutch East Indies. --Susan Irish 13:34, 27 February 2012 (EST)
OK, those are definitely in the right ballpark. The first two already have pages, Jacob and Hilje/Hilda. HIlda is listed in the 1930 census. The Gerrit who has a WeRelate page looks to be someone different. --Pkeegstra 13:46, 27 February 2012 (EST)

Was Alice Pilon married to Klaas Boerhave(n)? He's the only older brother of Johannes, who married her sister Grietje. --Pkeegstra 20:59, 27 February 2012 (EST)

Alice's husband was called Nick Boerhave, b. 9 Feb 1874, son of Jan & Margaret (Hagen) Boerhave. --Susan Irish 21:53, 27 February 2012 (EST)
Yup. Nick == Klaas. Klaas is a traditional Dutch short form for Nicolaas. Thanks! And I see Minnie is a Boerhave too. --Pkeegstra 06:59, 28 February 2012 (EST)

I created the entire family for the Assinks and the Boerhave(n)s. Did the parents Boerhaven make it to Washington State? I didn't see death records for them in the Netherlands. I see from the 1900 and 1910 censuses that the parents Assink made it to Washignton State. Any chance you have marriage records for Nick and Alice and John and Dorothy? Thanks again for helping us out with this! --Pkeegstra 12:19, 28 February 2012 (EST)

I found a Michigan birth record for Gertie Hendriks to confirm the county. But I was pretty sure it wasn't the Allendale in Clare County, because there is negligible Dutch settlement up there. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a marriage record for Hiram (b.1850) and Hattie (b.1850). BTW, everyone but Gertie seems to use the 'c' in the last name, so I'll note it as an alternate. --Pkeegstra 16:23, 28 February 2012 (EST)

I couldn't find the Netherlands birth record for Thomas Heeringa, but I did find one for Gertie De Vries. I also found her first husband, Evert Jongedijk. The only Netherlands death record I could find looks like his first cousin a year younger, so did he die in Washington State? (Something funny: The mother of Gertie De Vries is Trijntje de Jong, the same name as my great-grandmother.) --Pkeegstra 06:49, 29 February 2012 (EST)

I found the marriage record for Christina Youngdyk and James De Bruyn. They were both born in Antrim County, and married there. The biggest oddity in the marriage record is that there is no Ellsworth Township in Antrim County, so that must be a typo for Ellsworth Village. (No Jacksonville anywhere to be seen, which is good, because there is Jackson, MI, but no Jacksonville.) --Pkeegstra 12:15, 29 February 2012 (EST)

Jennifer thinks she's found the death record for Sytske Sybesma, mother of Thomas Heeringa. Do you concur? --Pkeegstra 12:29, 29 February 2012 (EST)

I linked Clarence Haveman to his parents and added Albert Haveman because he was in the SSDI. I have 6 more daughters in that family I can't link to SSDI unless I know their married names. BTW, have you seen any Vander Werffs? That's the other Lynden family I'm related to. --Pkeegstra 07:54, 3 March 2012 (EST)

Two more daughters I found mentioned in Ruby's obit are Bertha, wife of Clarence Hawkinson, of Tacoma and Henrietta, wife of Richard Gering, of Vancouver, WA
As per the 1920 census (in Polk County, MN) Henrietta was born in 1920. If I call up the 1930 census (back in Whatcom County, WA) I see that Bertha was born after 1920, specifically in 1922. Not sure what happened to Anna, born in 1905. --Pkeegstra 19:01, 3 March 2012 (EST)
The Van der Werff names are: Aggie (De Vries), Albert, Jacob, Johan, Margaret (Kiel) and Roy. --Susan Irish 13:38, 3 March 2012 (EST)
I don't see them in Washington State in 1930. So I'll need to do a little bit of research. BTW, I see the latest spouse you've found is a Bode. I think my first cousin is married to one of them. Oh, and Gertrude Bode Hendricks isn't in SSDI as that, so either she doesn't make it to 1965-1970, or she remarries after her husband dies (Spanish flu?) in 1918. I wonder if my cousin would know. Ah, but it's not essential, since she was born more than 110 years ago so we don't need a death date "in hand". --Pkeegstra 19:31, 3 March 2012 (EST)

"I see a Richard Gering in 1920 living in Snohomish County, born 1918 (2y11m) in Idaho. Looks promising, but I don't see him in 1930, and that worries me. There is an SSDI record for Richard D Gering born 30 Jan 1917 died 22 Sep 1994, which is also promising. Is that good enough? --Pkeegstra 08:38, 4 March 2012 (EST)

The Richard D. who died in 1994 is probably the right one as Vancouver, WA is in Clark Co. --Susan Irish 13:10, 4 March 2012 (EST)

Looks like we both tried to create Adrian Jongeneel at the same time. I merged the two together. I was defeated in my attempt to track down a Netherlands birth record. The obvious record was from a child who had died a few months later. --Pkeegstra 17:30, 4 March 2012 (EST)

I just created a page for Rev. Abel Brink, first pastor of First CRC of Lynden, who apparently moved back to retire there. --Pkeegstra 18:02, 4 March 2012 (EST)

I added Eerke Eerkes, who is almost certainly the Ed Eerkes in the obituary of Geertje Boerhave(n). Is his wife Augusta (b.Apr 1863 in Netherlands) someone you've already done? (Not sure how Reinder Eerkes got to be E. Eerkes too; he's definitely Reinder and Geertje is definitely his wife in the 1910 census.) --Pkeegstra 09:46, 7 March 2012 (EST)

Oops, I guess Eerke wasn't Ed. But he definitely immigrated to Washington State with his wife Augusta. --Pkeegstra 16:01, 7 March 2012 (EST)

I started creating John Van Mersbergen's wife Pearl when I realized she's less than the 110 years of age threshold. She's not in SSDI or the Washington State Death Index. Is she in your burials collection? --Pkeegstra 16:01, 7 March 2012 (EST)

Wendelina Vrieling [8 March 2012]

To answer your question about the number of wives of Arend Brink, it looks like there was only one, but her name and the names of her parents were Americanized in a variety of creative ways. --Pkeegstra 13:42, 8 March 2012 (EST)

Whatcom County Places [8 March 2012]

For the Forest Grove, Whatcom, Washington place of death for Mary Kortlever, Google finds a point of interest Forest Grove Farm near Nooksack. We could define a place on that basis, I suppose. It's confusing, because there is a Forest Grove, Washington County, Oregon but that can't possibly be a place of death on a Washington State death certificate. --Pkeegstra 12:55, 6 March 2012 (EST)

Forest Grove was near Lynden. I believe it had it's own column in early Lynden newpapers. I also used Ten Mile as a location for another person. Ten Mile should have had its own place location as it was still a functioning community in 1900 between Bellingham and Lynden.--Susan Irish 13:13, 6 March 2012 (EST)
If you can give me approximate road intersections, I can make the places. (We can make a place even if it was a ghost town in 1900.) Forest Grove Farm is on the opposite side of Nooksack from Lynden. Am I looking for a place between Lynden and Nooksack then? Ten Mile Creek is on the other side of I-5 from Ferndale. Does that sound like the right direction? I like tracking down ghost towns in Michigan, but it's a bit harder in a county I've never visited. --Pkeegstra 13:37, 6 March 2012 (EST)
I will work on this later today - have to leave now. --Susan Irish 13:43, 6 March 2012 (EST)

Plan A didn't work for tracking these places down; they weren't former railroad stops listed on my Rail Atlas of all North American rail lines that ever existed. Plan B is to look at topo maps. I'll start by checking with my friend from church, the descendant of Vos and Tjoelker. If he doesn't have them, I'll use the free interface to Topozone. --Pkeegstra 09:46, 7 March 2012 (EST)

Forest Grove and Ten Mile are there now. Ten Mile was labelled on the topo map, but I had a bit less to go on for Forest Grove. I also did a bunch of towns along the defunct Milwaukee Road line. If there are more towns you have a need for, I'd be glad to have a look at them. I see a couple person pages need Licking, Whatcom, Washington, but that's not on your map or any of the other easy places for me to check. --Pkeegstra 16:47, 8 March 2012 (EST)--Pkeegstra 16:48, 8 March 2012 (EST)
This is funny -- I just spent 10 minutes trying to find your message about Licking and couldn't figure out why I couldn't find it -- now I see you moved it to a more logical place/sequence. In 1910 Licking was a precinct near Goshen. The old Licking Cemetery is now called Hopewell Cemetery which is very near Nooksack Cemetery. I see I forgot to change the link to the 1909 county map on my website and since those files are on a different computer I will have to make the correction later --Susan Irish 17:22, 8 March 2012 (EST)

Was Licking on Hopewell Road at the Northern Pacific tracks (now BNSF)? --Pkeegstra 17:38, 8 March 2012 (EST)

Sorry for confusing you by moving place discussions to their own section. I added Licking and put it on Hopewell Road at the tracks. If that's wrong, I can move it. Note that the topo map calls Hopewell Road Goodwin Road, and the southern extension of what is now called Goodwin Road it calls Stevens Road. --Pkeegstra 18:05, 8 March 2012 (EST)

More Whatcom County Dutch Families [16 March 2012]

I saw some Noteboom and Polinder spouses. Those are families I'm interested in. I'll see if I can find when they left Netherlands. I still owe you to learn when the Vander Werffs came to Whatcom County. Also, I think I found the ancestors of all the West Michigan Holtrops, and saw some Whatcom County Holtrops and wondered if they were also from them. Also, did you give me everything you know about Benjamin Oosterbaan? I'd still like to track him down. --Pkeegstra 10:49, 15 March 2012 (EDT)

Oosterbaan's name was not found in the Coroner's Report although there were reports of people who died in the woods and in sawmill accidents. He would have been one of the very early burials in Monumenta Cemetery as the land for the cemetery was purchased in 1902 and had to be cleared of stumps. He is the only person of that surname buried in Whatcom County.
The earliest Holtrop appears to be John b. 10 Apr 1863; father Ralph; mother Trientje Van Loo.
OK, that is a different Holtrop line, but I have it in front of me now, so I can add pages for them. --Pkeegstra 14:21, 15 March 2012 (EDT)

I found a John and Annie Oosterbaan living in 1900 in Antrim County, Michigan. They were married in Netherlands in 1878. Her mother was a Westra, so she may be related to me. They had a son Menne Jans born 31 Dec 1879 and a daughter Anna born 1881 in the Netherlands. (n.b. the 1990 census has her birthplace wrong.) Any idea whether that's our Benjamin, and if so, how to demonstrate the connection? --Pkeegstra 11:24, 15 March 2012 (EDT)

Those Westras don't seem to be related to me, but Menne does seem to be a good fit for Benjamin. --Pkeegstra 14:21, 15 March 2012 (EDT)
The first family of Polinders shows up in Whatcom County in 1910. (I'll create the parents and see how many of the children meet the 110 year old cutoff.) I created the whole family of Holtrop and Van Loo in case any more of them show up in Washington State. --Pkeegstra 16:21, 15 March 2012 (EDT)

Waupun. I know the town well. My Dad used to have to preach there when they didn't have a minister, so he'd take all of us along. The City of Waupun is on the county line. But then, just to confuse us, there is also a Town of Waupun. I'd say go with the city unless otherwise specified. The city should have an "also located in" for the other county and the town should say "(town)", I think.... (I don't have that kind of map for Wisconsin, but I'd guess that the Town is what was left of the township which contained the city and it incorporated to keep the city from annexing anything more.) --Pkeegstra 07:10, 16 March 2012 (EDT)

Nice cleanup [22 March 2012]

on Family:Joseph Lovell and Ruth Richards (2). I can't believe I left that. I must have still been in my "these-people-must-know-what-they-are-doing phase". --Jrich 09:49, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

Mullins family [23 March 2012]

Susan, I see that you have made some corrections to the Mullins file. I would be interested in knowing where you are in the family. My line is me, Ralph Z. Mullins, William H. Mullins, Thomas Jefferson Mullins, John W. Mullins, Green B. Mullins, John Mullins, Thomas Mullins.

Graham K. Mullins 15:35, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Graham, not sure which edits you are referring to. I am doing "clean up" on person and family pages as I find them -- such as removing "all caps" and question marks in name fields, etc. per WeRelate guidelines. --Susan Irish 18:10, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Charter Members of First CRC, Lynden [22 April 2012]


I just received a list of the 14 families which were charter members of First CRC, Lynden, Washington. Many of the names look very familiar.; I suspect we have already captured most of them. The list is here in my MySource namespace, but I encourage the WeRelate community to help me complete this. --Pkeegstra 20:41, 21 April 2012 (EDT)

Hi, I added Douwe J. Zylstra. I have a John Derks Helder d. 10 Sep 1906 ae 60; wife Trintje -- could be Jan D. Helder in your list. If you think this is the correct person I will make the pages for him and wife. --Susan Irish 21:17, 21 April 2012 (EDT)
That looks promising; that's a common Americanization. --Pkeegstra 21:41, 21 April 2012 (EDT)
also see a Fred Bierlink d. 1907 ae 61; wife Johanna b. Germany.--Susan Irish 21:38, 21 April 2012 (EDT)
That looks promising, too. --Pkeegstra 21:55, 21 April 2012 (EDT)
I think Peter Dykstra is probably the half-brother of Tjitske Dijkstra. --Pkeegstra 21:42, 21 April 2012 (EDT)

Hints for the Origin of Florence Gertie Vander Meulen [25 April 2012]

I have been trying to track down Fred Stremler's wife Florence Gertie Vander Meulen in the Netherlands with no luck. GENLIAS knows of 250+ van der Meulens born from 1877-1879, and does not show the birth day unless you open each record. Neither AlleGroningers nor AlleFriezen show anyone likely looking with birthdays on either 7 Mar or 7 May. (There was one Maria, I recall.) So just a little hint would go a long way. --Pkeegstra 07:15, 23 April 2012 (EDT)

I believe this is her. Here is the marriage record for Fred & Gertie/Florence. --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:05, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
Aha. Dongeradeel is not yet in AlleFriezen, so I would not have caught that in my search of the list of van der Meulens sorted by date. And I didn't think to look for a marriage in Michigan because they were in Whatcom County by July, 1900. Many thanks for catching the clues I missed! --Pkeegstra 12:10, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
And that brings me back to where I started. Florence Gertie Vander Meulen's grandmother is Antje van der Woude, a relative of Trijntje van der Woude who was the first person outside my family I added to WeRelate to memorialize her after her untimely death from complications of pregnancy since I wasn't sure if she had family who would remember her. --Pkeegstra 12:54, 23 April 2012 (EDT)

I've found a whole bunch of Rozebooms who may have or did come to America, and am wondering how many of them made it to Whatcom County.

--Pkeegstra 12:29, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Only Henry John Rozeboom b 13 Aug 1887 Sioux Center, IA
His father Jan Rozeboom comes from the Netherlands. As per 1900 census he was born Apr 1840. Which I am unable to match. I find a Groningen emigration record for a Jan Rozeboom born about 1844. Of which I have two (this and this), neither born in April.
I also have a Jannetje Hoksbergen. The name matches the marriage record, but the date matches neither that nor the Apr 1861 of the 1900 census.
I put Henry John Rozeboom into the system. Is his father already in the system?
I have added all I have for Henry John Rozeboom. I now see there was a George Rozeboom who married in 1940 who may still be living; wife Elizabeth (DeKoekkoek) died in 2007; she was from Edgerton, MN --Susan Irish 18:13, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

I added James Roosma the other day. I have more information about his mother and spouses but would like to get mother's maiden name correct before adding his parents. --Susan Irish 13:17, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Susan, this may be James' birth info. The dates & surnames match up, but it's a little odd for Yde to be Americanized as William. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:42, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
Unfortunately this link brings up an error message. --Susan Irish 15:59, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
Try this. I've seen Americanizations a lot more far-fetched than that one. And my gggf kept switching Americanized names like a fashion accessory. So he remains Metske to us. --Pkeegstra 16:12, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Sipkje and Jacob Roosma [26 April 2012]

FYI, Jacob Roosma living with James and Sipkje in the 1910 census is listed as his cousin, but it's also her brother. (And I'm very interested in the van der Pol connection; my Dad's favorite uncle was married to a van der Pol.) --Pkeegstra 13:03, 26 April 2012 (EDT)

(But it looks like it's a different van der Pol. My Dad's aunt's line runs out at Durk Beerends van der Pol, this line at Jorke Klazes van der Pol.) --Pkeegstra 13:38, 26 April 2012 (EDT)

Jennie Bouwman [27 April 2012]

Something seems very odd about Jennie Bouwman. If she really is the child of Frank Bouwman and Grace De Vries, their marriage is easy to find and was in 1902. And they have a child Jeltje born in 1903 who would make a prime candidate to be Jennie. But that would mean that she has two husbands by age 14. --Pkeegstra 17:48, 26 April 2012 (EDT)

I have nothing else right now. Perhaps she was adopted.
She was his first child by his first wife, Aaffien Goed. And her birth record was not in GENLIAS, only in AlleGroningers. (So he had a Jentje and a Jeltje. Probably about as confusing as my ggm and her sister Harmke and Hinke, both Americanized to Hattie.) Oh, and Jeltje b. 1903 needs a death date before we can make a page for her. --Pkeegstra 21:03, 26 April 2012 (EDT)

On another topic, I have a record for Ouke Post d 1909 ae 84; could he be the father of Johannes Post? --Susan Irish 19:57, 26 April 2012 (EDT)

That looks about right. He was born in 1824. --Pkeegstra 21:03, 26 April 2012 (EDT)

Thomas Minor/Miner [1 May 2012]

Finished the father and the first son. Nine to go and three bogus children to deal with. You could at least let me get some sleep and finish the job later rather than reverting my changes out of hand.--jaques1724 03:48, 1 May 2012 (EDT)

Veleke [6 May 2012]

Any chance you have a hint for the parentage of Aart Veleke someplace? I have an 1831 Netherlands wedding of Gerrit Veleke, 25 and Bethje de Zwaan, 21 which is a promising candidate to be his parents. --Pkeegstra 13:25, 2 May 2012 (EDT)

--henk 15:19, 2 May 2012 (EDT)

Many thanks! That's great that that site gives us reasonable answers. But I'd be a lot happier if I could find documentation for Aart's birthplace and parentage from a source other than something traceable to OWT. Unfortunately, there are no filmed birth records from Ermelo for the relevant decades here. --Pkeegstra 17:50, 4 May 2012 (EDT)
I couldn't find any more information from home. There is probably an obit but I am not in a position to go look for it right now. No phone book listing for that surname. --Susan Irish 17:58, 4 May 2012 (EDT)

Here is some information from Streekarchivariaat Noordwest-Veluwe ( btw, there is a very helpful site for finding the smaller local archives that often have information that Genlias does not:

Veleke; Aart 
Ouders: Veleke, Gerrit en Zwaan, de Betje
Geboren: Ermelo 25-11-1845 Akte: 126

Aart Veleke (from Genlias)
Geslacht: M
Overlijdensdatum: 27-03-1846
Overlijdensplaats: Nunspeet (Ermelo) 

Veleke; Aart
Ouders: Veleke, Gerrit en Zwaan, de Betje
Geboren: Ermelo 19-09-1854 Akte: 92 
--Jennifer (JBS66) 02:34, 5 May 2012 (EDT)

Thank you so much! That's quite different from the Monumenta Cemetery birth date, but it looks like it's the right person. --Pkeegstra 20:10, 5 May 2012 (EDT)

Any Hints for Potgieter or Tap? [1 June 2012]

Susan, I am down to two remaining unidentified families in the First Lynden CRC charter members list. By any chance can you give me any sort of hint on them? I have sections set up for each on the talk page. --Pkeegstra 11:48, 1 June 2012 (EDT)

Dedham Vital Records [9 August 2012]

Wondering if you were really accessing the 1997 Robert Brand Hanson version or the much more widely available 1886 version edited by Don Gleason Hill. The reason for the question is that the page numbers you gave when sourcing the birth dates of four of the six younger children of Family:Robert Hinsdale and Ann Woodward (1) match the 1886 version. It could be a coincidence or just a slip of the mouse. Thanks--jaques1724 17:31, 9 August 2012 (EDT)

Hi, I was using the images of Dedham Vital Records 1635-1845 online at and down in the fine print it does say edited by Don Gleason Hill, 1886. I probably didn't notice there was more that one choice for Dedham Vital Records when I selected the source. Thanks for pointing that out. --Susan Irish 18:19, 9 August 2012 (EDT)
OK. I'll change any I run into. Thanks again1!--jaques1724 19:11, 9 August 2012 (EDT)

your recent chg to James Ireland [31 August 2012]

Hi Susan, Thanks for fixing the civil war citation for Person:James Ireland (8) but I'm wondering why you changed his birth location from Warren County, Ohio to Warren, Trumble County, Ohio. I don't see a source for that. Before I change my database, I thought I should check with you if you meant to make this change or perhaps it is one of those drop-down menu woops. --Janiejac 12:50, 31 August 2012 (EDT)

Sorry, I didn't mean to change location; probably removed data afer "|" Not making any excuses but am begining to find these drop-down menus getting "cluttered." --Susan Irish 13:30, 31 August 2012 (EDT)
I agree with you on that! Often the drop-down covers the search box making a search for what I've typed difficult - or worse, if I'm on a roll and going fast, it substitutes it's own notion of what I want; what I call 'a drop down woops'. I fixed James. --Janiejac 14:12, 31 August 2012 (EDT)

Barbour Collection and other vital records? [15 October 2012]

Hello - I have a question and hope you have some ideas.

I was wondering if there are any particularly good close-to-original ASCII transcriptions of New England vital records, that are in the public domain? I was thinking about what would be involved in bringing some of those transcription here - doing to them something like what I've been doing with Savage.

Thanks for any ideas... --jrm03063 18:30, 15 October 2012 (EDT)

Hi - I can't think of any right now. As you know many MA town vital records were published in book form and are out of copyright. NEHGS originally published many of them and has been scanning them and placing the images online. For CT the vital records were collected by Lucius Barbour - hence, the "Barbour Collection" which was microfilmed and made available to libraries many years ago. Now NEHGS has a printed version of this collection that they have scanned and placed online. Maine, Vermont & NH records are scattered "here and there" in town histories, etc. There is a central file of state vital records for VT in Montpelier, VT and for NH in Concord, NH which are now showing up at --Susan Irish 19:54, 15 October 2012 (EDT)

If people want to access transcriptions online, there are several such collections for some of the towns, but no complete ones covering everything. For Massachusetts the has provided transcriptions of many towns that are linked to scanned pages of the original document (for some towns they only provide an index, not a transcript). These are useful for searching, but I always attempt to create my abstracts from the scanned page because despite undoubted efforts to proof-read them carefully, the error rate in the transcripts is not negligible. It is really a finding aid,not a replacement for the published records. Source:Connecticut, United States. Barbour Collection of Connecticut Town Vital Records lists several towns in Connecticut with such transcriptions. I am less familiar with the error rate on these. Further, has several scanned vital records, and they have a OCR tool that would allow one to get a relatively good transcriptions (compared to other OCR engines), but still they are error-filled due to different type-faces, faded type, stray marks, and the OCR engine of Google removes all the punctuation because they intend to enable searching.

Undoubtedly the published vital records have errors, too, though it is doubtful that the general user reading original colonial handwriting could be given as much credence as the published vital records compiled by someone who might be considered an expert.

As Jaques1724 said, it might not be that useful. The sequential records are often not related to each other. Also the vital record has little context about a person, and it can be very difficult to take a vital record giving, say, a single date of birth, perhaps turning out to be a child that died 6 months later, and finding enough information to be sure you have linked it to the correct individual. I tried once starting at page 1 of Concord Births and it took weeks of research to finish working through the page.

The opposite approach, of knowing about a person, and trying to identify the specific vital record that describes them, and adding a transcription of that specific record to their page as part of a source citation, has been going on steadily all along. --Jrich 19:56, 15 October 2012 (EDT)

Deleting pages and user status [22 October 2012]

Hi Susan,

I've noticed that you do a great job of finding and marking living Person/Family pages for Speedy Delete. Members of the Speedy Delete patrol are discussing ways to streamline these efforts. I've suggested that we change your user rights to Admin. This would allow you to delete pages for living people without having to place them into Speedy Delete first. Is this something you might be interested in? Also, if you are interested, you may want to consider joining the Speedy Delete patrol since I believe your work in deleting living people would overlap with this group. --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:42, 22 October 2012 (EDT)

Hi Jennifer,
I have been cleaning up the categories where ? and ?? appear in name fields for the better part of 3 years. It is in this process that I have found a large number of abandoned GEDCOMs containing living persons and have been marking them for speedy delete. I appreciate your comments and would be interested in the ability to delete directly and save some one else the time and energy in completing the delete process. --Susan Irish 15:14, 22 October 2012 (EDT)
I've updated your user status which means you now have the ability to delete pages. If you have any questions at all, just let me know! --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:28, 22 October 2012 (EDT)

Caldcleugh [11 December 2012]

I'm new to WeRelate and I hope I've added details of Arthur Lewis who married Margaret Trenham Caldcleugh, (my 3rd great grandmother) correctly and without breaching any protocols. I have more information but thought I'd just try this before jumping in boots and all.--CJLWheeler 18:05, 11 December 2012 (EST)

probate files [21 December 2012]

Just fyi. You might have noticed I added 14 Sep 1759 to the text of source for Person:Consider Howland (7). I don't like to assume the death date will always say what it says now. This is particularly possible in this case, because it is an estimate, and could be refined. So then the source citation would be left without any date of when admin granted. --Jrich 20:57, 20 December 2012 (EST)

Good point -- Thank you--Susan Irish 21:58, 20 December 2012 (EST)

Pattridge [3 January 2013]

Hi. My name is Richard Oelkers. I am not a Pattridge descendant, (well, actually I am, but but probably not the same Pattridges). However, I have some photos and other information that are Pattridge related. This material once belonged to Sherman Wood, originally of Pleasant Grove, MN. His parents were Hiram Wood and Delia A. Pattridge. He and his wife, Clara Olive Wood, had one child, Hiram Wood. Hiram never married. When he died in 1964, my grandmother inherited his estate. I would like to share this information with anyone who is interested in it. Some of items I have include photos of Hiram, Sherman, Olive, and Vira Pattridge. One of the photos may be of George Pattridge and his wife, Mary Parks. I also have newspaper clipings of the George Pattridge death notice. Feel free to contact me at Oelkers45(at) Please replace the (at) with "@". (Done to foil spammers). Sincerely, Richard "Dick" Oelkers--Oelkers45 16:45, 3 January 2013 (EST)

Brick Wall [8 January 2013]

Hi Susan,

I'm hoping that we can feature the Family:Andrew Mott and Unknown (1) page for our next Brick Wall, but I'm wondering if you would be willing to create a talk page entry on that page, describing all of the places that you've already looked, what clues you have, etc.?

Thanks! -- Jdfoote1 23:01, 6 January 2013 (EST)

I don't have a research log that I can type from onto the talk page. This research was done onsite in Saratoga County and at the Family History Library before we all had computers and I had learned the value of documenting sources. I summarized my search efforts when I posted this family to the brick wall page. Days later I scanned the various documents I had collected and added them to the pages of the various family members. I will think more about what I could put on the talk page but I won't be able to do this tomorrow. --Susan Irish 23:37, 6 January 2013 (EST)
I think what we have now is good enough. If you have time to flesh it out sometime, that would be great. -- Jdfoote1 22:08, 7 January 2013 (EST)

Two John Greenes [16 January 2013]

Hi. I was wondering how you determined that Barbara Holden was married to Person:John Greene (89) instead of Person:John Greene (91) - the latter of which I just added. Both Johns are sons of Richard Greenes, but both Greenes of Rhode Island and Roger Williams Family Association match Person:John Greene (89) to Person:Mary Greene (89). Greenes of Rhode Island also matches Person:John Greene (91) with Barbara Holden. I haven't found vital records or wills to link the correct John to the correct spouse, but you seem to have better access and expertise for that sort of primary source. Let me know what you think. Thanks! Colby Farrington 01:29, 15 January 2013 (EST)

Hi, I changed the spouse of Barbara Holden to match the research of George Sears Greene. Arnold usually more clearly identified a father in a marriage record listing when there was more than one obvious choice, but not this time. This is not my line and I don't have any information to challenge the George Sears Greene conclusion; also I do not have all the published abstracts of Warwick probate records. Thanks for finding this error. --Susan Irish 21:51, 15 January 2013 (EST)

Jos Palmiter [19 January 2013]

Hi Susan, I see that you are watching Joseph Palmiter. Is he part of your family and if so do you know anything more about him that might connect him to David Palmiter. Thanks,--Sheri 16:21, 19 January 2013 (EST)

Person:Sarah Clarke (46) [1 February 2013]

Hello again. Sarah Clarke Greenman came up in conversation and I noticed her record here was added by you. Do you know if you had any sources for her? Thanks. Colby Farrington 09:29, 1 February 2013 (EST)

Hi, Sarah was the last daughter named in her father's will and called Sarah Greenman. --Susan Irish 13:33, 1 February 2013 (EST)
Okay, but any idea where the dates came from? Colby Farrington 14:11, 1 February 2013 (EST)
The dates may have been taken from Source:Morrison, George Austin. Clarke Genealogies--the "Clarke" Families of Rhode Island. I no longer have access to this book and I cannot verify them which is probably why I did not add a source. --Susan Irish 17:10, 1 February 2013 (EST)
Morrison is on if you have that. Doesn't seem to give any dates nor any events that would lead directly to those estimates (e.g., will of brother Jeremiah who d. 1752 doesn't mention a sister Sarah, no birth dates for any siblings, no marriage dates for the parents), but does present one important item: will of George Sisson of Portsmouth, proved 20 Sep 1718 mentions daughter Elizabeth Clarke and granddaughter Sarah Clarke. His conclusion then is that Sarah is the only child with wife Elizabeth, the other 4 belonging to second wife Deborah Peckham (daughter Deborah Clarke mentioned in will of William Peckham of Newport proved 1734). --Jrich 17:21, 1 February 2013 (EST)

need sources even for admin work [17 February 2013]

1709 was correct I believe, per sources I find. If there was is a source you consulted to say 1700, then both need to stay. --Jrich 10:09, 15 February 2013 (EST)

jrich, since you have access to a source supporting the 1709 date, I hope you'll add that information. Jillaine 10:27, 17 February 2013 (EST)
I did. Make sure you are looking at the current version. Person:Peter Tinkham (1). --Jrich 10:52, 17 February 2013 (EST)

Your usage of the RI Vital records [22 February 2013]

Hello Mrs. Irish,

Ive been going through a number of the pages in the Chase of Yarmouth line, many of whom later lived in RI, and a number of them you added a source from the various RI vital records that are scattered on the internet. But something confused me; on a number of them you leave a page number but no volume number so I have been unable to track where alot of them are. But I admit my working with the RI vital records is somewhat limited. Right now the example I am looking at is Family:James Chase and Huldah Winslow (1) and their marriage date, but there was many others.--Daniel Maxwell 01:50, 22 February 2013 (EST)

Hello Daniel,
The Rhode Island Vital Records by James N. Arnold consists of 21 volumes. The "Swansey Record of Friends" and other Quaker records are in Volume 7. There is a general index to the contents of each volume here [7]. Each collection within the volume has it's own numbering, so you will find page 23, for example, in several collections within each volume. So look for the title of the collection, "Swansey Record of Friends" which I include in my source citation. --Susan Irish 13:33, 22 February 2013 (EST)

Main Page [9 June 2013]

Just a note to say thanks for your edit to the Main Page. Regards, AndrewRT 18:05, 9 June 2013 (EDT)

Rosanna_Hill_(1) [7 September 2013]

Susan: Please take a look at the comments I have added to the following page and let me know your view on how the issue should be resolved: Thanks, Tbrady--Tbrady 16:30, 7 September 2013 (EDT)

Hi, I think you have made a good case for removing Rosanna Hill as the wife of Stukely Westcott and the mother of his children and I see no reason not to remove her as his spouse. Personally, I would like to see the films of registers for this parish and verify for myself that the births/baptisms of Robert Westcott and other children appear or not before merging the two lists of children. Without a reliable source for the birth/bapt. dates of his children I would be inclined to leave the two sets of children for now. Others watching this talk page may choose to offer another opinion. --Susan Irish 21:08, 7 September 2013 (EDT)
Sometimes, a short cut for getting the film is to check IGI on (the part that indexed films, not the user submitted stuff), but I search for various combinations, and I don't find either the marriage or the baptism of Damaris or of Samuel listed. Besides some general searches, specifically, a search of the catalog shows Yeovil, Somerset, England baptisms on film 1526122 (Bishop's transcripts of Yeovil, 1607-1861). A search of this film for the name Westcott, the spelling in the quoted baptism records, yields nothing pertinent (it does yield some results -54,838 of which 258 fall between 1619 and 1630), suggesting it may have been indexed). Of course, Bishop's Transcripts are probably copies, not originals --Jrich 22:49, 7 September 2013 (EDT)

Christening versus Baptism for Thomas Miner [3 October 2013]

I think the discussion for christening versus baptism as they apply to Thomas Miner is on DataAnalysts's page. So I'll add my two cents there. --Pkeegstra 13:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for Catching That for Maggie Dyk [10 November 2013]

Thanks for catching that I had the wrong marriage for the parents of Maggie Dyk. I see most of the Ancestry trees make the same mistake. Unfortunately, there are two obvious Sara Boer(s) in the Netherlands, but neither seem to match up, so tracking her down may prove to be a challenge. (But of course I love such challenges, even if sometimes I need to call in help.) --Pkeegstra 23:40, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Death Date for Jennie Brink [16 November 2013]

I've been doing the ancestors and half-siblings of Maggie Dyk (mentioned above), and I seem to have gotten stuck. Maggie's half-sister Jennie was the second wife of Peter Hoksbergen. My assumption is that that means he was widowed. But I cannot find a death record for his first wife, also named Jennie. Any ideas? (Please followup to Person talk:Jennie Brink (1).) --Pkeegstra 15:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

== Mary Ormsbee(Ormsby) [22 November 2013] ==3rd Wife of Abiah Carpenter who died 1732

Do you or anyone else have any info on who Mary was? My sister and I suspect she may have been a widow of an Ormsbee but have not been able to get a match in any of the old Rehoboth records. Some say she was the dau of Richard Ormesby who came from England about 1635 but we have never found he had a daughter Mary. Any ideas would be appreciated. We are desc from Richard and have most of his tree down to us but like everyone else are trying to tie up little loose ends. John Ormsby--JWOrmsby 04:44, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia [16 February 2014]

"At the present time I would NOT like to see WeRelate became a part of Wikipedia" - If you would, could you leave your thoughts on wikipedia at the 'Changes' page? Hopefully the word of admins will carry some weight.--Daniel Maxwell 02:03, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

This page here: Currently it seems pretty divided what it would mean but I do not think things like transcriptions would last very long. I also believe we will have our editorial policy dictated for us, not to mention the undesirables that WP would bring over.Daniel Maxwell 11:40, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Anachronistic places [15 March 2014]

Hi Susan,

Lately you've reversed some edits I've made regarding anachronistic places piped from the canonical place name.

My understanding and decided preference is that the place names displayed (piped) for an event be the historical names used at the date of event. This provides a historically accurate context for understanding the biography of an individual and her environment. This was one reason I chose to contribute to WR.

I hope we can resolve this without reverting each other. I refrained from further re-reverts after I noticed the pattern of you reverting my edits. --Prcb 22:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I was hoping Susan might reply, she being a very conscientious contributor, I was interested in her opinion. But I will add my comments to represent the other side of this discussion, which has probably been had dozens of times over the years. I don't mean to speak for Susan, merely to respond to your post. You didn't give an example, but it appears that one case being referred to is Person:Moses Cleveland (1).
First, the pipe mechanism typically indicates a GEDCOM upload since it is a way to preserve the original input of the GEDCOM while letting the computer link to the appropriate Place page. So as a matter of process, when one notes the link was made to the correct Place page, then there is no real need to keep the original input. A human verifies the computer made the right choice by removing the pipe. The history of the place, plus the various historical names should be described on the place page, instead of redundantly and tediously entered on each Person and Family page.
A quibble about the word above, "preference". I think there was originally some idea that the pipe would allow some personal freedom. However, there is little place in a community database for personal preference. I notice that in changing the page to your preference, you changed it from Woburn, Middlesex County, Massachusetts to Woburn, Middlesex, Massachusetts. I have become aware that there are a few people whose preference it is to have the word County be explicitly included. So whose preference is more important? Some of us (me that I can vouch for) tend to remove piped names just to remove the source of such disagreements.
A point about "historically accurate". This is a nearly impossible goal and something very few people actually turn out to do properly. For example, in 1701, there was no Massachusetts, there was the Province of Massachusetts Bay, as opposed to the current Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and the previous Massachusetts Bay Colony. But who wants to have to figure when the counties came and went, when the charters started and stopped? We are naming a location, the convention is to give the location with the name it had in 1900. That way when a date (e.g., an estimated birth or death is adjusted or converted to an actual date, or correcting an error in a date) changes, you don't have to change the location as well. If you identified the physical location of the event properly, naming it once as it was named in 1900 should not need to be updated.
Just like dates, assertions about places need sources. Sources have free-form area where it is very easy to provide the explanation and description mapping whatever name is given in your source to the standard name in the place field. Since it often happens that another source uses a different naming convention (i.e., one is historical, the other uses the modern name, etc.), each source may or may not need such elaboration or explanation. So embedding such mappings in the source citation seems the appropriate place to do this. Some people do do the work with deeds that is needed to pinpoint the old homestead. I believe there is a help page that describes how to embed GIS coordinates in the description field if you have the sources to be so precise.
Of course when I add "United States" to the place names, it does not mean that I think the United States existed in 1701, this being effectively the change Susan apparently undid. (Ironically, it seems to me that the very same user who don't know when the U.S. started are might be the ones most in need of the "United States" to give them an idea where the place is.) Of course there could be some disagreement about when it did start: 1776 when the phrase was used in the Declaration (though united was lower case, i.e., merely an adjective, and not a proper name), 1781 when the Articles of Confederation were ratified and there was actually a government, 1783 when the Revolution ended and the government was recognized, 1787 when the Constitution was written, or 1788 when a committee is created to put it into operation after ratification, or 1789 when the first Congress is seated. Do we really want every user to worry about this stuff? I don't. --Jrich 19:45, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
There was a time when I bothered making such a distinction in my tree (I remember I had the single Italian line of mine with a birth showing in the 'Republic of Venice') - up to and including the reshuffling of colonial administrations - but states, governments, principalities change too often for this to be tracked. Daniel Maxwell 19:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
For some reason Susan Irish chose to respond on my talk page instead of here. See . She has not (as I write) responded to my remarks there. --Prcb 21:05, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
@Jrich & DMaxwell: A large part of the reward I get from the hobby of genealogy is a strong sense of the reality of history. I do not find many others get this, so I do not expect every WR contributor to share my preference for historical accuracy. Clearly neither of you are very concerned with historical accuracy. Fine. I ask nothing of you except that my preference be respected. As I mentioned to Susan Irish, I strongly feel that your attitudes _against_ historical accuracy are harmful to WR. Please stop your misguided efforts against historical accuracy. A little dose of historical reality may reward anyone who is open-minded and receptive. Also, you misunderstand or misrepresent my position with your fixation on the word "preference". To reiterate, adding "United States" to the location of an event that took place in the colonies is absolutely, categorically, historically incorrect. That event _did not_ occur in the United States. This is not a "preference". It is a fact. My "preference" is to accurately represent facts; Your stated preferences are to misrepresent facts and give excuses as to why historical accuracy is too hard for you to attempt.
@Jrich: Thank you for your thoughtful discussion of when the USA started. I don't know of an accepted cutoff date. If a contemporary document is the source and it had a place name specified then one should of course consider that. Otherwise I generally use 1784 as the cutoff (that is, events in or after 1784 may have taken place in the USA), which is about 2 months after the signing of the Treaty of Paris between the USA and England. This choice allows some time for news of that event to have reached people in the new country. Perhaps there is some room for preference here, as the situation is ambiguous to us moderns for certain dates and places, and the perceived situation to contemporary people may have changed gradually and differently for different people.--Prcb 21:05, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
The word 'preference' was indeed accurate. Susan Irish did nothing wrong. Whether or not it is written in stone (maybe it should be), the practice here has been to use the modern state/government/country. The historical place is secondary, though it is not intrinsically against the rules. Right now, you're changing things to match your preference of how you want things to be displayed. Maybe Susan Irish shouldn't have just reverted a reversion without making a post on the support forum or water cooler, but neither are wrong exactly. As for this remark: "Clearly neither of you are very concerned with historical accuracy." - yeah, I just spend hundreds of hours cleaning up families and person pages of people completely unrelated to me, what would I care about historical accuracy? Daniel Maxwell 21:18, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
This is definitely a subject that needs to be brought before the overview committee. I don't agree with the idea that the pipe mechanism was designed for gedcom uploads. This is incorrect. Also if you read the help files the Colony of such and such is recommended. Yes, being precisely accurate is difficult as I have been made aware of but it is also absurd to enter the place as United States before the United States was a country. Y'all can argue about when the USA became a country; not getting into that. But I cannot believe that someone is deleting the pipes for historical places. Why exactly?--Beth 01:55, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
But Beth, the difficulty about when the USA became a county is exactly the point. If you're not going to get into that, then you miss the whole reason why historical names are impractical. Not only that, but then there would have to be a WeRelate policy agreeing on exactly when the US became a county so that people know when to use United States as opposed to the colonial name. There is a period in colonial America where the charters of the various colonies were invalidated and it was two years before the new charter was issued. Do we still call it Massachusetts Bay Colony in the interval? No such thing existed legally. Why aren't we adding Kingdom of England at the end, too, since technically it was. And in 1707, it becomes Great Britain, so if an estimate is changed from 1706 to 1707, should we change the place name from Kingdom of England to Kingdom of Great Britain? I imagine issues in other areas of the world like Poland and other parts of eastern Europe, Alsace-Lorraine, Africa are even worse. People chafe at the name of the country in 1900 because it represented some form of imperial domination. But we're not naming the government, we're naming a place, and if everybody puts aside personal preferences and follows the guidelines, then naming the location as it was named in 1900, you have indicated the location, and maybe, someday, the computer can allow personal preferences to display it in the manner the user wants to see it, either historically or standard form or modern. But if you let personal preference rule, it will be edit wars and meaningless and needless changes by people who want to pretend they are championing historical accuracy, but who almost always are using a name that never existed at the time because they have not done enough research to know what the real name was. --Jrich 02:54, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
It boiled down to a preference, Beth. Susan pr
It boiled down to a preference, Beth. Susan preferred the modern place name, 'Prcb' preferred the older colonial name. It sounds like there was something of a revert war. Both are right and there shouldn't be a fight over it, though the site policy seems clear that the historical colony/place is secondary (yet it can be used). But if we want to get very exact, this could lead to alot of hair-splitting and what I like vs what you like, etc. Probably needs to have a formal policy and be discussed first because right now I foresee alot of toe stepping. Daniel Maxwell 02:00, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
By what authority did you Susan decide to this? I know that you have been a long time contributor to WeRelate and should know that the pipe is used for historical place names. But anyway I guess we need another discussion. But if there is too much hair-splitting I may decide to quit cleaning up my pages and just delete them. --Beth 02:29, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
'Susan and I' decided nothing on our 'authority'. When I was new, this is what the other heavy editors did and I simple did what they did. I wasn't aware this was controversial. Apparently I was wrong. I've started a discussion at the watercooler with what I think is the best compromise because otherwise it could lead to hairsplitting, though we aren't big enough for this to have become a problem, yet. Daniel Maxwell 02:36, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
How are toe-stepping and hair-splitting a problem? These are made-up issues. Most historical place name changes happen on a definite date. The USA location is surprisingly rare between 1776 and 1789. There was a war going on. None of the reverts in question occurred then. It seems to me that the toe-stompers are complaining about sore toes. I did not raise this issue to try to force anyone to use historical place names, it came up when my edits were reverted.--Prcb 02:54, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
They are not 'made up'. Let me give you an example - I am also a Cleveland descendant. Maybe I don't like the historical places (or quasi-historical, since 'Massachusetts' didn't exist yet - that would be the hair splitting I could do if I were to nitpick) on Moses Cleveland's page, and I change/revert them, as you did to the page, which was already sourced. We shouldn't be fighting/reverting over what seems like a really minor issue. I've started a discussion on the watercooler about this. BTW, let's keep cool over this, and avoid getting upset about it (such as the accusation that I don't care about historical accuracy). I am not saying I'm wrong and you're right, or vice-versa, or even that both of these could not co-exist. See my suggestion on the water cooler. Daniel Maxwell 03:00, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Well in the help files for WeRelate you may enter Colony of whatever after the pipe. What does it matter to anyone whatever one chooses to enter after the pipe and why change it unless it is just repetition from a gedcom upload.--Beth 03:12, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
It really doesn't matter to me. You won't see me reverting this on pages that you have that way. The point is Susan and 'prcb' were, so something should be worked out, lest they revert each other all over the entire site. Daniel Maxwell 03:18, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Because anything entered after the pipe is inherently a personal preference. You are naming a physical spot on the globe, not a government, so the fact that the United States didn't exist in 1701 is irrelevant: that spot of dirt being indicated was in the United States in 1900 and that is the WeRelate convention for identifying a particular spot of dirt where an event happened. And the use of pipes tends to hide the fact that the wrong Place page has been linked-to, because only the after-pipe information is displayed unless you are in edit mode (which of course you won't be if the page appears correct). Thus, a recent conversation mentioned a place in Canada that was often linked to a Place page in England and nobody noticed because the page displayed with a reasonable place name. Personally, I cleaned up a lot of pages saying Kingston, Massachusetts that were actually linking to the Place pages for Kingston, Jamaica, or Kingston, Ontario, Canada, or even Kingston, Tasmania. Besides allowing for the verification of automated place matching during GEDCOM uploads, the only valid use of pipes to my mind is when you need to add a qualifier such as "Probably" to the place name. And why do you mention a caveat, i.e., "just repetition from a gedcom upload": do you expect people to look at the history and choose to leave or delete the exact same piped name based solely on whether it came in by GEDCOM or manual edit? --Jrich 03:47, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
First, there was no revert war. When I realized what was happening I stopped & wrote an entry on Susan's talk page. I never made a "hot" edit, and I don't think Susan did either.
I apologize for saying that WR contributors don't care about historical accuracy. However accurate places are part of historical accuracy, just as accurate dates and family relationships are. I am not a professional historian, and I make mistakes in historical place names. Correcting these, with an explanation so that I may learn not to repeat the error, is not nit-picking or hair-splitting. It is part of the collaborative process of improving a shared genealogy. Historical place names are not "personal preference". Please stop repeating this obvious fallacy. Historical place names are not turned into a personal preference just because they appear after a pipe on an edit page. This is simply untrue. Historical place names are first-class facts just like the name of my gr-gr-grandmother (who was called Gaga by her grandson). Why is the fact that some canonical names on WR are laughably wrong an argument for or against historical place names? It is an argument against canonical place names, if anything. Any type of fact may be disputed, stepped on, or nit-picked. This does not mean we should abandon facts in genealogy. Please stop insisting on this nonsense of using 1900-era place names in preference to historical place names. That is historically incorrect and is _contrary_ to WR policy. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors and very little substance being piped about here.
The pipe system works pretty well. When you click a place with a historical name after the pipe it takes you to a page titled with the canonical (1900-ish) name. So you get both. That seems pretty fair. If you don't like using historical names because they're too much trouble don't bother with them as far as I'm concerned (although clearly I don't make the rules around here).
The pipe system could be improved. I can foresee a system that uses geolocation and date to get a historical name, however that's a big lift and should probably be borrowed rather than built for WR. That would be an improvement over using 1900-era place names as canonical names, which is clearly confusing to many people. And I don't think WR should build a system that lets people ignore historical reality because they fear the complexity. Should there also be a system that displays personally preferred counter-factual dates or relationships? --Prcb 05:01, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

double-dating [1 May 2014]

When people put "between" with two dates one year apart it almost always reflects a lack of understanding of how double-dating works.

diff of changes

It really meant 3 Mar 1677/68, except that date comes from secondary sources, the primary sources say 4 Mar. --Jrich 20:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Mercy Barber [2 August 2014]

Susan, From reading one of your sites it appears that your watch on the Barbers is more administrative than personal. Still, I first found your name while trying to sort out my "brick wall" with Mercy Barber, b. btw 1700 and 1725, depending on the source. The sources that crop up first and most consistently have Mercy the daughter of William Barber and Sarah Mumford, and give her birth date as in the early 1720's. She is shown marrying Joseph Carpenter in 1733 and giving birth to Fenix Carpenter in 1734. If 1720 something were true, she would be marrying at anywhere from age 11 to age 14, and somehow I doubt it. But the information I found on We Relate lists her more reasonably as the daughter of William Barber and his first wife, Mercy Smith, who married in 1710. That record indicated that Mercy Barber was born in 1713, and I find that matches my own surmises. But I am hoping to find the source that confirms this, and so far I have been unable to. Is there any attribution to go with the Mercy Barber or Mercy Smith record?

Thanks for helping a newcomer get started.--Miel41 16:55, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to offer some links. I don't think there is an actual birth record available, as I think there would be much more consistency in sources if so. I can't speak for Susan but I would guess the estimate is probably based on the marriage date to Joseph Carpenter: married one year before the birth of Fenix, so married 1733 at age 20?
this link shows a book that suggests there were no children of the first marriage. But, as has been posted on the WeRelate page, William clearly had a daughter named Mercy and grandson Fenix since he named them in his will (or see here). William married Mercy Smith in 1710. William married his next wife in 1720 (see here). If the choice is that Mercy is a daughter of the first wife, or not born until after 1720, knowing that Fenix was born in 1734 is sufficient to show the above source cannot be right. Whether one chooses about 1711 or about 1713 or about 1715 is not all that significant, the key part is recognizing she must be a child of the first wife. --Jrich 20:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Welcome to WeRelate Miel41. You are correct in thinking that William Barber was not my ancestor but his brother, Moses Jr., was my ancestor. As Jrich pointed out from sources available, the daughter of William Barber who married Joseph Carpenter could not have been a daughter from the second marriage. Since no birth record has been found we can only guess that her age was somewhere around age 18 - 22 when she married. --Susan Irish 05:49, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Andrew H Mott [19 January 2015]

Hi Susun I Found this link to a Rebecca D Mott, who I think is the mother of Andrew Hattaway Mott. I found it on, so perhaps you know it already.

Greetings Paul Snip--paulsnip 10:19, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello Paul, Thank you for your interest but Rebecca D. Mott was his aunt - sister to his father, also named Andrew H. Mott. Andrew (Jr.) was born after his father had died and the first trace of him is in court records at age about 3 when his paternal grandparents became his guardians. The record states clearly that the deceased Andrew H. Mott Sr. was the father but has no mention of his mother. Darn it! --Susan Irish 01:34, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Aslett/Aslebee [21 February 2015]

FYI, I created the page as Family:Samuel Frye and Mary Aslebe (2) knowing the marriage record said FRY, Samuell, and Mary Aslett, Nov. 20, 1671 since I cited that marriage record. Probably should have used Aslebee. I haven't done an in-depth study of the family, just the daughter Mary Frye, but had looked several places for information on that, and Aslebee seems to be how the name is spelled in literature (for example searching for Aslett in the index of TAG misses the article in Vol. 40. entitled Aslebees of Andover, and an article in Vol. 41 mentioning them, only returning a reference to an article on the Salem Witch Trials). It appears that only the town clerk of Andover during the small period while the child were born choose to spell it Aslett? The brother of Mary "Aslett", John, has his will stored as John, Lieut. ASLEBEE and John's widow as Mary ASLEBEE, no wills seemed to be stored under Aslett. --Jrich 19:01, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for this additional information. --Susan Irish 19:55, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Ads [28 March 2015]

Mrs. Irish, I don't know if you saw Dallan's comment on your post on the Watercooler, but the ad placement is a work in progress, and we will be working on them in both placement and size so that they are not intrusive. I sympathize with this; the site needs to raise revenue at times, and this is one means to do it. However I also agree with you that the user experience with this initial setup was quite poor.--Daniel Maxwell 07:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Phineas Kenyon (1) [18 April 2015]

Hi Susan,

I came across a Marr. Record in Woodstock (CT) Vital Records for a Phinehas Kinyon to Elizabeth Rogers in 1767. I believe Elizabeth Rogers b 1751 is a sister of a direct ancestor, as she was born nearby in Canterbury, CT and a transcribed Bible Record I have states that she married a Phin. Kinyon. I don't have access to any of the sources in WR that might state if Phineas married in Woodstock. Do you have any further sources that may tie him to Windham Co, CT ? I tried the Rhode Island Vitals; no clues.

You have Phineas Kenyon (1) b 1744 as son of David. By the way, other Kenyons appear in Windham records a bit later. A Thomas Kenyon appears to be of the same generation. Thanks Neal--SkippyG 01:13, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Phineas & Elizabeth [18 April 2015]

Thanks Susan,

I have the complete Woodstock VR. I'll not connect them yet, but I've put the marriage record as a note on Elizabeth's page, until I can find more proof. I really appreciate the help..Neal--SkippyG 03:36, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

LAY family [19 October 2015]

Hi Susan, Thanks for working on the Lyme LAY family. Regrettably I've not worked on this line for several years since I entered those pages in 2009 & 2010. Regards Neal Gardner--SkippyG 22:53, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Woburn Records [12 November 2015]

Just fyi. Source:Woburn, Middlesex, Massachusetts, United States. Births, Intentions, Marriages, Deaths, 1641-1843, 1768-1849 is not the same thing as Source:Woburn, Middlesex, Massachusetts, United States. Woburn Records of Births, Deaths, and Marriages. The first is a film, now also online. For example, Rebecca Wyman's birth is on p. 44. The second is the published book, and is the one that has Rebecca's birth on p. 286. It may seem like splitting hairs, but Edward Johnson, the compiler of the published records, inserted a lot of personal preferences in his book, which would make the film a lot better source if it wasn't so much harder to find records (also the cited film happens to be a copy made in 1846). Also, the published book is a 10 volume set, so Rebecca's birth is Vol. 1, p. 286. --Jrich 06:09, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for this addition information. I was not aware of the familysearch record online. --Susan Irish 06:17, 12 November 2015 (UTC)