User talk:JBS66/Archive 6

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

problems [2 January 2012]

Hi Jennifer

i have fore the second time reviewd the Gedcom but there are stil some problems i have'nt been able to solve so far. Most of them are alerts for children who were born before marriage. I have excluded them but that does not work. Its now 1 am may be to morrow give it a knew try. don't know how google+ works installed the plugin.

Tjisse Peterson--Tp 18:59, 1 January 2012 (EST)

Responded on user's talk page. --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:24, 2 January 2012 (EST)

govegus [6 January 2012]

hi Jennifer, never mind the edits, I'm going to have to delete the tree again as it contains only half of my individuals...--Govegus 11:45, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Was there a problem with the gedcom upload? --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:49, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Yes the 5K person limit as usual  ;). Not all of the old pages had been deleted so I had taken a day matching families to the old pages only to find out that I had imported only half of the people in my gedcom. In order to avoid going through that process again I'll have to find a way to properly divide it in two gedcoms and hope the pages will be deleted this time. Unless of course these pages were all watched by other people...--Govegus 12:19, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Something seems odd about this to me. If the pages had not yet been deleted, on the family matches tab you would have seen your pages trying to be matched to a red-linked page. I didn't see that when I looked at your file, or I would have alerted you. Furthermore, you waited a few days between deleting your tree and reuploading your gedcom (22 Dec-27 Dec). Only a few hours are required between tree deletion and reupload. Pages that are also watched by others won't be deleted, you will only be removed as a watcher. Currently, you share somewhere around 20-30 pages with others. Can you give me an example of a family that was included in the gedcom you uploaded but was not imported into WeRelate? You shouldn't have to delete your tree again to reupload a new gedcom. If you need any help with Aldfaer and splitting your file - Klaas is really the best person to talk to. He uploads pieces of his over 375,000 person gedcom regularly :) --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:16, 5 January 2012 (EST)

I haven't seen red linked pages, no. But I intentionally left a lot of time between deletion and reuploading the gedcom and yet there were much more family matches than I have watchers for my pages. One example was Arnolda Rosalina van Ophem.

I did talk to Klaas about splitting the gedcom. Theoretically it's not really that difficult for my 10.003 individual gedcom, just separate my family from my wife's and make sure that anyone linked to them is included (we do not share any ancestors for over the last 400 years which I suppose is good). But no matter how I tried I always ended up with all but around 500 ancestors from one family in the other. Then I realised that the 5th grandfather of my wife was a witness at the wedding of of the sister of my 5th grandmother, and that witness links were included in the establishment of groups in Aldfaer (after all you want all the information to be included). This resulted in two groups in separate gedcoms, one of which still exceeded the 5K limit, and both containing over 500 individuals less than the original gedcom. Unfortunately, a further split of the bigger one still results in 512 less persons than I have in my original gedcom. This is probably due to branches that are so remotely related that Aldfaer does not include them in either group. This is a pity because even though I cannot see at a glance whom is missing I have not included them in my tree without a good reason. I guess that as a community we think that this is the price to pay for a 5K individual gedcom limit.

I'll try and import the split gedcoms soon. If I bump into hundreds of families to be merged I'll let you know.--Govegus 04:21, 6 January 2012 (EST)

how to make exceptions for living people? [8 January 2012]

Hi, quick question...

I'm trying to add a page for John Edwards, who is living but I think is an exception to the ban on living people pages, since his birthdate and parents are on Wikipedia. The software won't let me add him since his birthdate is in the last 110 years and he doesn't have a death date, how do I add him?

Thank you!--Poliwop 07:29, 8 January 2012 (EST)

You are right, there is an exception to the living person policy for people who have a page on Wikipedia. An example of this is Person:William Clinton (4) where an N is entered in the death date field along with a note explaining the exception. You can also add a template to bring in some of the text from his WP page. See Help:Guidelines for use of Wikipedia for those instructions. --Jennifer (JBS66) 08:07, 8 January 2012 (EST)

Talk pages for new users [23 January 2012]

Hi Jennifer, This is the error message I found when trying to access talk page for Drew Sawyer. -- "This site has restricted the ability to create new pages. You can go back and edit an existing page, or sign in or create an account." The "Add topic" button is not there at this time. --Susan Irish 15:19, 22 January 2012 (EST)

Susan, this is strange... I tested this out on the sandbox site with a non-admin account, and the Add Topic link appears on talk pages there. I'll ask Dallan why this might be happening. --Jennifer (JBS66) 16:06, 22 January 2012 (EST)

It's a badly-worded message (I've just fixed it), but here's what happened: awhile ago we decided that non-admins couldn't create talk pages for users that did not exist. So I checked for the presence of a user page to determine if you could create a talk page. Of course that doesn't work if the user hasn't created their user page. Normally this isn't an issue because User:DFree creates everyone's talk pages when she welcomes them, so you're usually editing an existing talk page. But in this case you tried to leave a message for Drew before Debbie had welcomed him. Anyway, I've fixed it so that you can create talk pages for users that have registered but may not have created their user page. Thanks for letting me know.--Dallan 10:00, 23 January 2012 (EST)

Interpreting Date in Begraaf Records [24 January 2012]

I finally found a relevant begraaf record from before 1811, for Wikje Doekes. But I'm not sure how to interpret it. If there is just one date, is it the death date, or the funeral/burial date? --Pkeegstra 12:48, 23 January 2012 (EST)

Tresoar has more information here (in Dutch) about their Burials database. It's a collection of various sources. For Wikje's entry, the source is listed as "register van overledenen". My belief is that since the source is the death register, this would be a death date. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:05, 23 January 2012 (EST)

When it is from the civic administration 1805-1811 it is the death date. But the earlier records in general related to the church-administration can be funeral or death date or even the date after both when the family has paid the taxes for the funeral.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 01:01, 24 January 2012 (EST)

Stillborn [5 June 2012]

Jennifer, I prefer to give a stillborn child at least the familyname. I would like to hear your opinion, just write stillborn or at least give the familyname?--Klaas (Ekjansen) 09:02, 24 January 2012 (EST)

Yes I agree with you 100% They do need a name just not dumped in a hole and forgotten like so many have. They were alive but for some reason they just did not make it.

Ed Tieman--Foxtail1 14:31, 29 April 2012 (EDT)

Jennifer and all, I don't recall any discussion on this subject. Today I located a death certificate for an unnamed infant. He was premature and buried in the Bethel Cemetery in Jones County, Texas. I am using this death certificate for a source for the marriage of the parents, so I can of course enter the data on the family page. But I decided to search WeRelate for the definitive opinion on entering pages for unnamed infants. The policy seems to be not to enter them. Says that one should not create empty pages. Well a death certificate certainly would not be as empty as many of our pages. I did not find this in the help pages but with a search. Specifically comes up regarding gedcoms. While searching for the grave in the Bethel Cemetery I did find reference to an Anderson born in Norway that some of you may be interested in. Here is the link to his page. [1].--Beth 20:28, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

Presumably a stillborn isn't an empty page, assuming delivery date would be used as both birth and death fields. Genealogically, it is an interesting event, as it may impact birth estimates for other children, proof of marriage or residence, etc. So it seems like it should be documented. It is not clear from many of the records whether unnamed infants are stillborn or died in a few hours so don't think that should make a difference. Typically, I have been naming them "Son Smith" and "Daughter Smith" if the sex is documented, "Child Smith" if not, and that seems to be the pattern I mostly see, though I have seen "Stillborn Smith" (not my favorite) and a few others. --Jrich 21:07, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for your response. I totally agree with you. I searched to find how to name the infant and was surprised to find this entry. See [[2]]. Judy and Jennifer both contribute their time reviewing gedcoms. I recalled this message on Jennifer's page and added my findings here. Jennifer, do you know if there is an agreement on this issue? I am inclined to create the page as Son Anderson.--Beth 22:28, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

Given that WeRelate has a separate way to encode the gender of a stillborn or other unnamed child, on the basis of earlier postings in this thread I have been creating such pages and using "Unknown" for the name. I concede that that leaves ambiguous whether it is a case of a child with no name because he or she never had one versus a child who had a name, but none of us know it. So I will bring my pages into consistency with the consensus if the consensus is that that distinction is significant. --Pkeegstra 23:11, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

Where are the earlier postings that led you to this conclusion? Waiting for response from Jennifer. We made need to move this to the watercooler. One of the problems with a Wiki is reaching a consensus. <g>--Beth 23:33, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

By "earlier postings" I was referring to the January and April posts in this thread. I agree about difficulties demonstrating consensus. BTW, if "Unknown" is too ambiguous for this particular case, may I suggest "Unnamed" as capturing the exact semantics of this case (and being a bit friendlier than "stillborn"). --Pkeegstra 01:27, 3 June 2012 (EDT)

Good morning everyone :-)

When Klaas first left this message on my talk page, I responded to him via video chat, and did not think to update here with a response. Beth, I was also surprised when I saw Judy's response at the time, my feeling is that it was a misinterpretation of WeRelate's preference to not create empty pages. The gedcom importer does not automatically exclude stillborn children, I do not manually exclude them, and I don't believe that Solveig (who is currently reviewing gedcoms) does either. I agree that creating pages for stillborn children is beneficial to tell the complete story of a family. I recall reading somewhere (though I can't find it now) that one of the admins suggested not creating pages for stillborns and, instead, documenting the fact in the text section of the family page. I do not agree with this approach for a few reasons. One, is that it would not accurately display the true number of children the couple had on the Family page. The other reason is this is almost impossible to manage with gedcom imports - are we really going to look through each person to "exclude" the stillborns - that is unreasonable and unnecessary work.

So, we come to the issue of how to title the pages. WeRelate already has a policy that states "If the given name is not known, leave the field blank. If the surname is not known either leave the surname field blank or type in Unknown. The system will automatically title your page in the proper format: Unknown Surname or Given Unknown" (from Help:Person pages tutorial). This is also the response I gave to Klaas, since the child's name was not known, and we do know the surname (say Smith for example), the page would be titled Unknown Smith. A problem does arise with gedcom uploads though. When the first name field is blank or contains Unknown, the pages will be titled according to this rule. However, if the gedcom has Son, Daughter, Child, Girl, Boy, etc... the pages will be titled with that. Since the gender, if known, is already indicated on the page, I don't feel it is necessary to duplicate this information by putting a gender-specific word in the title.

Another problem is internationalization. In the Netherlands, records will say Levenloos Kind, or N.N. which stands for nomen nescio (this is not used as often in the U.S. but is very common in European gedcoms). I would not personally suggest using Son or Daughter in the title, it's too Americentric. Currently, the gedcom importer changes NN to Unknown - but I believe it fails to change N.N. My opinion is that it would be preferable to keep one rule - rather than adopting a new policy just for stillborn children. We don't know their name, so the above-mentioned policy would apply. We are still left with variously named pages from uploads though... --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:16, 3 June 2012 (EDT)

Comments about the efficacy and accuracy of the Help system aside, there is no indication that the tutorial in question even considered this difference between unknown and unnamed, so no reason to believe that policy statement is intended to address this detailed issue. After all, the name can not actually be said to be unknown as in something still to be found, rather the state of the name is known, namely, that is was never given. And while gender is indicated on the Person page, that gender does not get copied to the Family page, and since there is no name, the gender becomes a useful identifying tag. Since the child is often only known in records as son of so-and-so, or daughter of so-and-so, I do like the gender in the name field. When viewing Family Pages for colonial families with 10 or 12 kids, sometimes with multiple unnamed kids in the same family, and given that many pages have been polluted by garbage from AFNs, WFTs and the like, every detail makes things easier to understand and match against one's sources. --Jrich 13:39, 3 June 2012 (EDT)

If the chief counterargument to using "unknown" is one based on limitations of the family page, it seems to me that one could file an enhancement request to rectify that. The obvious fix would be to put instead of the dot after the numeral, either the astrological Mars symbol♂ or the astrological Venus symbol ♀ (both part of Unicode), thus conveying the gender independently of name. Such an enhancement would also provide the same benefit for obscure names whose gender is not immediately obvious. --Pkeegstra 16:00, 3 June 2012 (EDT)

The chief argument against "Unknown" is that the name is not unknown. It is unnamed, which is something different. It means you are not looking for an answer, the name is actually known. Unnamed means in a search you shouldn't match to John, because the person is not John: it never had a name. Unknown implies John, or Jane, or George, or etc., could be valid matches (though WeRelate's search doesn't currently have that much functionality).

The sex on the Family page is an argument for using Son/Daughter, as opposed to saying "Unnamed", is my preference: I think it clearly indicates there was no name and adds information that might be useful. Normally the name gives some indication of the gender and that is missing when there is no name, besides which, some colonial families had multiple unnamed children, twins even, and it may help every once in a while to distinguish between the different unnamed children in such cases (e.g., Family:Samuel Seabury and Abigail Allen (1)). I will add that it seems to be the predominant practice already on WeRelate (788 Person pages using daughter, 713 using son, 663 using child, 213 using unnamed and 127 using stillborn, I didn't count unknown as presumably most of those are actually unknown and not unnamed). --Jrich 16:40, 3 June 2012 (EDT)

Can someone, please end this discussion? I want to have fun in sharing information, not in debating about "words" I'm not American, but Dutch and some of these children are on the Dutch Birthcertificate not called Unknown, Unnamed, or whatever someone thinks they have to be called. The contributor is free to enter in this field whatever he or she wants to enter (of course within limits). --henk 03:52, 4 June 2012 (EDT)

Jennifer and everyone thanks for responding. From this discussion I conclude that we all agree that one may create pages for children who were not named. I prefer not to use unknown. However, we do need a concensus on the given name field because our pages are part of a community and not our own once submitted. Either suggestions are okay with me. Which is best for our international community?--Beth 09:40, 4 June 2012 (EDT)

Sounds like using anything reasonable that is not "Unknown" seems to be the answer. Myself, I've always used "Stillborn". Jillaine 06:32, 5 June 2012 (EDT)

I don't believe we can say what the "predominant practice" is on naming stillborns on WeRelate. JRich gave only a subset of examples - there are many more that use N, NN, Levenloos, Unknown etc that are not accounted for in his analysis above. Also, I would suggest that if we are looking to create any type of policy, that is not be done on my talk page. This topic would need to be discussed on the Watercooler or Support page for community input. There are various words being imported via gedcom upload to describe stillborn children - perhaps creating a policy for one word is unreasonable. --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:42, 5 June 2012 (EDT)

The same person! [27 January 2012]

Wessel Rozendaal en Janke Wiltjes Meindersma are the same persons as Wessel Siegers Rozendal en Janke Wiltjes Meindertsma.--Wijtske 13:23, 27 January 2012 (EST)

Bedankt Wijtske, I merged these two families into this page: Family:Wessel Rozendal and Janke Meindertsma (1). --Jennifer (JBS66) 19:12, 27 January 2012 (EST)

time used on werelate [28 January 2012]

Hoi, I noticed that the time used on werelate is 1 hour later then our time, is there a special reason or did miss something (as usual :-)) Or is perhaps the summertime we use in Western Europe?

groetjes.--henk 10:38, 28 January 2012 (EST)

Hoi Henk! If you go to Settings (top right of screen)>Date and time, underneath "time zone" there is a button that says "fill in from browser". Click that button and press Save. If this does not fix the problem for you, let me know :) --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:46, 28 January 2012 (EST)

I did miss something (as usual) dankje--henk 10:50, 28 January 2012 (EST)

Burgerlijke Stand Renaming [30 January 2012]

Jennifer,

My home link is too slow to load the FamilySearch images to add them to the renamed Burgerlijke Stand source pages. I'll try to batch them up for when I get someplace with a faster link, but if you get there first and would like to add that, that would be great, too. I did find one anomaly for which guidance would be appreciated. There are some places defined which as far as I and Wikipedia NL can tell, only ever existed as components of the names of former gemeente. How should those places be classified? Examples are Kalverbroek and Klinkerland. Many thanks! --Pkeegstra 08:45, 29 January 2012 (EST)

FamilySearch changes their URL's frequently, which messes up our attempts to link directly to the images for a particular gemeente. Instead, I've been using a template to link to the main page for the collection. This way, if the URL changes, then I only need to change the URL in the template. This isn't as nice as being able to link directly to the page for the gemeente, but it works. An example of this is Source:Hillegom, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. Burgerlijke Stand. The templates for the repositories and source page text are:

• {{fscollection|1831469}} and {{FS Netherlands CivReg}} (for the Netherlands CivReg)
• {{fscollection|1404156}} and {{FS Netherlands LI CivReg}} (for Limburg)
• {{fscollection|1554394}} and {{FS Netherlands GE CivReg}} (for Gelderland)
• {{fscollection|1576401}} and {{FS Netherlands ZH CivReg}} (for Zuid-Holland)
• {{fscollection|1392827}} and {{FS Netherlands NB CivReg}} (for Noord-Brabant)

Regarding your next question, I'll look into this a bit. btw, there is one document that I've found very helpful. It's the Repertorium van Nederlandse gemeenten 1812-2006, and it's available in pdf format here. You may want to save it to your home computer - this makes searching a lot quicker. --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:56, 29 January 2012 (EST)

Sounds good. I found a table of former gemeente on NL wikipedia which is completely up-to-date which I found very helpful. My problem with the FS site was that on my home link I can't even verify that they have the images for a specific gemeente in their collection for a province (particularly for the obscure ones that were absorbed in the 1850's). --Pkeegstra 16:50, 29 January 2012 (EST)

I deleted the place pages for Louisapolder and Klinkerland. It appears they were polders and not any sort of municipality. I did keep the page for Kalverbroek. According to a NL gazetteer, this was a buurtschaap in the gemeente of Reeuwijk. --Jennifer (JBS66) 12:44, 30 January 2012 (EST)

Sounds like this gazeteer would be a candidate for my collection. Is it a PDF, or a hardcopy book. If the latter, is it still in print? --Pkeegstra 16:06, 30 January 2012 (EST)

It's a hardcopy book: Source:Ter Laan, Kornelis. Van Goor's Aardrijkskundig Woordenboek Van Nederland, 3rd edition (1968). I use it often and I purchased it online from a used book seller in Dokkum called Atseedokkum. I've ordered a couple of books from them, and their customer service has been very good. It takes about 3-4 weeks to arrive. I also use Source:Pott, M. Aardrijkskundig Woordenboek van Nederland and Source:Kuyper, Jacob. Gemeente-Atlas Van Nederland which are available online. --Jennifer (JBS66) 16:30, 30 January 2012 (EST)

Unrelated question. I'm working through unincorporated places in Ottawa County, and I just found more of them with cemeteries. Should I move those systematically into townships as part of my cleanup? Should I move the ones at county level, too? (If a cemetery really is associated with an unincorporated place, of course I'll make that an "also" link. But, for example, the Tallmadge ones are on opposite sides of the township, so they can't both be associated with the unincorporated place.) --Pkeegstra 09:01, 29 January 2012 (EST)

I'll admit that I am not too familiar with the system of townships. However, I did look at a few of the cemetery pages that we have for Ottawa County, and in those cases, Find-A-Grave or Histopolis identify them as being in a particular township. I believe we would want to rename the cemetery pages to reflect their accurate location. --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:56, 29 January 2012 (EST)

I hope this isn't the part you know. This 19th century map of Kent County shows how it works. Anything not in cities or villages is automatically in a township, and they are laid out geometrically (six mile by six mile squares). An unincorporated place (not a city or village) has no legal status (even if it has a post office); the legal entity is the township. This works very well for relatively flat states like the midwest. But even in Ottawa County some of the township borders are adjusted to follow the Grand River. In sparsely populated counties in northern Michigan and the UP there are many cases where the named township consists of multiple square survey townships. --Pkeegstra 16:50, 29 January 2012 (EST)

Thank you, this is helpful!

Another unrelated question. Have you noticed that options for pre-1811 parish records searches just appeared on GENLIAS? Have you had a chance to try them out? --Pkeegstra 08:50, 29 January 2012 (EST)

These are the DTB options in the Bron/Source box right? I thought those have been there for some time. If you go to http://www.genlias.nl/en/page16.jsp and click on a province (like Noord-Brabant), at the top is an overview by source which shows the gemeente they have pre-1811 records for. I haven't used this because I've not seen anything for Friesland, which is where most of my research is for. --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:56, 29 January 2012 (EST)

If they don't have any pre-1811 record from Friesland, that explains why my first set of searches didn't work. BTW, do you thing that eventually the NL contributors to WeRelate will decide to systematize the pre-1811 sources by making a source page for every church? (How many churches were there in 1800?) --Pkeegstra 16:54, 29 January 2012 (EST)

I think we will :) There is a page here: Reorganisatie Nederlandse bronnen that shows some of the proposed changes to source titles. I will talk more about the pre-1811 sources with Klaas soon. One of the challenges is that not all of the Dutch users are watching our Help:NLHelpdesk or Portal:Netherlands (Nederland) pages. The task of deciding on new titles for the DTB sources and then renaming them is a large one. It would be nice to have one place where all of the Dutch researchers (not just those living in NL) can discuss issues like this, rather than on separate talk pages. So... I'll use this opportunity to say... for the Dutch researchers reading this, please Watch our Help:NLHelpdesk and Portal:Netherlands (Nederland) pages :) Also, if you are on Google+, let me know, I do have a circle of other Dutch WR users, and that is a great way to converse. --Jennifer (JBS66) 12:44, 30 January 2012 (EST)

Duplicates [1 February 2012]

Sigh. Since last weekend one person had created a duplicate place Allegan Township (with wrong metadata) and another person has creates duplicates for the entire Sint Hendriks Baron family. (The latter with at least one wrinkle, reusing one date of birth for a different child.) Is that the sort of thing that takes up much of your time? What sorts of things do I just go in and fix, and what sorts of things do I leave messages and hope the originator fixes? In the latter case, how long do I give?

I see from this how vital our administrators are, and I thank you and all of them for the work they put into keeping this site from collapsing into total chaos. Thanks! --Pkeegstra 07:03, 1 February 2012 (EST)

Administrators are just one part of keeping WeRelate from "collapsing into total chaos" :-) A larger part are the diligent and observant users such as yourself! Administrators can do things like delete pages, but all users can mark pages for Speedy Delete, merge duplicates, volunteer for maintenance projects, etc.

Regarding the township, you are very knowledgeable about places in Michigan, so I think you could redirect the place and leave a message for the user explaining the move. I did go ahead and redirect it to the properly titled page.

Regarding Family:Sint Baron and Froukjen van der Meer (1), I think this may have happened because the user uploaded his gedcom around the same time you created this family. Usually, the system would have checked for duplicate children and merged them as part of the family merge. In this case, I don't see any problem with you merging those pages without leaving a message for the user (I did merge them already). Overall, I'd say "be bold", but I think that is something that develops over time and with personal comfort level. If I see an incorrect birth date on a Dutch page, I fix it, add the source, and leave a note in the edit summary (that is my message to the user). If I want to have a discussion about a discrepancy, then I will leave a note on a talk page. --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:27, 1 February 2012 (EST)

Thanks for your cleanup. I think there's one more duplicate, but it solves a problem of mine. The Henry Baron I found in Muskegon is indeed related to the Barons whose Wybenga descendants attend my church. I think I can take care of this merge. --Pkeegstra 11:23, 1 February 2012 (EST)

Puzzle [1 February 2012]

Hoi Jennifer, I added a person (peter vandenEinde) would you take a look at it (please) I would like your opinion about this--henk 07:31, 1 February 2012 (EST)

Oh a puzzle :)) Louis and Abrahanna had a few children in Nieuwerkerk aan den IJssel before they went to Groningen. There was a son named Pieter (http://www.groenehartarchieven.nl/voorouders/k2geb/53615972). Your page has a birth year of 1853 for Pieter, but his marriage certificate puts it closer to 1848. Still, this may not be the correct Pieter (ie, this Pieter died young and another was born to this couple). A few more pieces to the puzzle:

• 1870 census for Louis, Abrahanna, and family (including a Pieter).
• 1880 census for Pieter & Lucy
• Abrahanna's death certificate
• death certificate (Pieter) --Jennifer (JBS66) 08:56, 1 February 2012 (EST)

How did you ever find that 1870 census for Louis, Abrahanna, and family (including a Pieter) I can.t read the name at all,but I think it is the Peter I'm looking for. Now I have to find out if he's born somewhere between Nieuwerkerk and Bedum. Thanks....--henk 09:47, 1 February 2012 (EST)

hoi, You've found that 1870 census, with a louis, etc. but is that the same 1 as I'm looking for? I can't read the lastname :-(

It appears to be Foudaning. Somebody added a note on Ancestry.com that says Louis Foudaning ([Louis Vandeneinde]). I suppose if the enumerator wasn't of Dutch background, van den could sound a bit like Foundan. Louis Foudaning ([Louis Vandeneinde]) M,55, b abt 1815 in Holland Abrahama F,50, b abt 1820 in Holland Charles M,26, b abt 1844 in Holland Peter M,22, b abt 1848 in Holland John M,12, b abt 1858 in Holland Louisa F,15, b abt 1855 in Holland Lois M,7, b abt 1863 in Holland Mary F,3, b abt 1867 in Holland

--Jennifer (JBS66) 14:34, 1 February 2012 (EST)

main WR page edit needed [1 February 2012]

Hi Jennifer, The information in "News" section on the Main Page should have the year 2012. --Susan Irish 16:08, 1 February 2012 (EST)

Susan, I edited the WeRelate:Current news page and changed the year. Thank you for letting me know! --Jennifer (JBS66) 16:12, 1 February 2012 (EST)

Gabine Fontein [3 February 2012]

Hi Jennifer, Just received the Persoonskaart of Gabine Fontein and this are here parents : Jan Fontein is geboren op donderdag 24 april 1873 in Welsrijp, FR, NL. Jan is overleden. Jan trouwde, 25 jaar oud, op woensdag 11 mei 1898 in Hennaarderadeel, FR, NL met Janke Tiemstra, 22 jaar oud. Janke is geboren op donderdag 2 september 1875 in Tzum, FR, NL. Janke is overleden. --BenS 05:13, 3 February 2012 (EST)

Thank you for this information Ben. Does the Persoonskaart confirm where Gabine was born? --Jennifer (JBS66) 08:00, 3 February 2012 (EST)

No, she is born in Wolvega according to the persoonskaart. I will change the record.--BenS 17:02, 3 February 2012 (EST)

Family name [3 February 2012]

The problem that I have is that the family name was Björk in Sweden, but when they came to the United States he took the name Burg. Others took the name Berg. It all adds to the fun created in genealogy. I am not sure how I should do this.--Rjosephson 10:10, 3 February 2012 (EST)

The title of the page reflects the "preferred name" which is often the name as spelled at the time of birth. So, on your Person:Carl Björk (Burg) (1) page, you would click "Edit" and then click the "Add alternate name" link. The first line is the preferred spelling (Carl Erik Björk) and you can put the immigrant name on the second line (Charles Burg), then save the page. Lastly, you can click the "Rename" link to rename the page to Carl Björk. Make sure not to add a middle name to the page title. If you have any further questions, just let me know.

Website in Germany [6 February 2012]

Jennifer, I just stumbled upon this website. Do you know anything about it? If you compare it to this person, you will understand my interest. Do you know anyone else on this site who might be familiar enough with it to evaluate it. It looks like its data is from Nordhorn, DE church records. --Pkeegstra 18:16, 5 February 2012 (EST)

I am familiar with these database. I met some of the people like mr. Davina (he died a few years ago). these are secondary sources derived from the church records. The link for all online Ortfamilienbücher is [3]. These publications try to make an overview of all families in a certain place.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 01:33, 6 February 2012 (EST)

Thank you! I don't see a reason not to use it then, as long as I can get from it the text of the church registry. Unfortunately, my third cousin whose ancestor came from Darmstadt to Netherlands will be disappointed, as they don't seem to have Darmstadt in their collection. --Pkeegstra 09:50, 6 February 2012 (EST)

Tiete Gerbens Sinnema 1875 [6 February 2012]

Jennifer, as far as I can see this guy emigrated to the USA on the 19th of Septeber 1903. I have found a record on the Ellis Island site of Piele Sinnema and I think that this is the same person as Tiete. Also the "Bevolkingsregister" of Leeuwarden mentioned that he left Leeuwarden of the 16th of September 1903 to Caddilac, Michigan, USA. Do you know if we can find more info about this guy? --BenS 07:14, 6 February 2012 (EST)

Hi Ben, Tiete went out to Omaha, Nebraska. Here are the 1910 and 1930 censuses. The WWI Draft Registration card confirms this is the same person. I will upload that to WR later on today. I'll also look around more for a death date. --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:39, 6 February 2012 (EST)

I Found a Divorce; Did I Document It OK? [12 February 2012]

I found my first divorce in GENLIAS. I was a bit confused because the source mentions both Schoterland and Herrenveen with different dates. Is the way I set it up OK? --Pkeegstra 16:35, 12 February 2012 (EST)

That looks correct to me. I've been confused myself as to which date is the "official" divorce date. I found this text on Tresoar:

"Welke datum telt als datum van het ontbinden van een huwelijk?

Bij de ontbinding van een huwelijk is de datum van inschrijving van het echtscheidingsvonnis in het register van huwelijken en echtscheidingen de officiële datum van echtscheiding. De inschrijving moest bovendien binnen zes maanden na de vonnisdatum plaats vinden. Met andere woorden: als een echtscheidingsvonnis niet binnen zes maanden na de vonnisdatum in het register fan huwelijken en echtscheidingen werd ingeschreven, dan had het vonnis geen rechtskracht en bleef het huwelijk dus in stand!"

I take this to mean that the official divorce date is when it was registered with the local municipality (ie, 23 Feb 1894 in this case) not the date of judgement from the district court. --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:26, 12 February 2012 (EST)

Wiersma Family [13 February 2012]

Hello jennifer i'm working on the Wiersma side of the tree your family tree matches all my wiersma family.--Wiersmas Family Past 18:00, 13 February 2012 (EST)

Interesting, welcome to WeRelate :) The Wiersma that is a direct ancestor of my husband is Person:Wijtske Wiersma (1). Otherwise, if I am watching Wiersma pages, it is because I am working on a project to document the births and marriages of Ferwerderadeel and Leeuwarderadeel Friesland. If you have any questions at all just let me know. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:08, 13 February 2012 (EST)

Seubering/ \Suydam [14 February 2012]

Jennifer, you recently merged Willempje Seubering with Willempje Suydam. I believe these are two separate people. I have Willempje Seubering married Steven Coertse van Voorhees as his second wife in 1649. Willempje Suydam married Albert Coertse van Voorhees as his second wife in 1743. Albert was Steven's grandson.--Scot 18:16, 13 February 2012 (EST)

Hi Scot, this is the merge that I did, but Willempje Seubering and Willempje Suydam were merged together back in 2008 with a series of merges that you did. I'll see what I can do to unravel this. --Jennifer (JBS66) 05:58, 14 February 2012 (EST)

Family:Albert Van Voorhees and Willempje Suydam (1) and Family:Steven Van Voorhees and Willempje Seubering (1) should now have the correct spouses. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:34, 14 February 2012 (EST)

Wiersma Tree [13 February 2012]

Jennifer I have been working on the wiersma from 1999 and have found over 2000 family members so far your your swart will help me complete your side nice to find cousins that are working on trees to.--Wiersmas Family Past 18:51, 13 February 2012 (EST)

Thank you... [15 February 2012]

...for this. I could not figure it out. Colby Farrington 09:27, 15 February 2012 (EST)

propagate changes [20 February 2012]

when I read: propagate changes, I aways think that I have to do something (besides reading) is that correct?--henk 12:53, 20 February 2012 (EST)

Can you give me an example where you are seeing the "propagate changes" message? --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:03, 20 February 2012 (EST)

(diff) (hist) . . m Person:Bartje Prins (1)‎; 11:13 . . JBS66 (Talk | contribs) (Propagate changes to Family:Jan Prins and Aaltje Zuidema (1))

maybe it's just something inside my mind, when I read propagate I make a connection suggested changes--henk 13:09, 20 February 2012 (EST)

First I renamed the Family:Hindrik Prins and Aaltje Zuidema (1) page (from Jan to Hindrik). That change affected other pages - ie, their son Bartje's page would need to display the correct names of his parents. While I did not actually touch Bartje's page - a change did happen to it via renaming the Family:Hindrik Prins and Aaltje Zuidema (1) page. When a change happens *in*directly to a page, you'll see in the edit history the "Propagate changes to" message. --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:38, 20 February 2012 (EST)

Leontine Hoffmann [26 February 2012]

Hi, sorry I couldn´t find your entry. Thank you anyway Regards Jurgen--

Jurgen Tuttipole 17:10, 25 February 2012 (EST)

Hello dear Jennifer, you helped me a lot by inserting Leontine´s photo. Loads of thanks !! I think there might be people (Estonians who have emigrated to Canada ?) who know s.th. about Leontine & a photo will be a great help. Yours Jurgen

Multiple Pieter Pieters Post [26 February 2012]

Which Pieter Pieters Post, if either, do I connect my Wiepkje Rinnerts Rinnertsma to? (She married the son of Peter Hendriks and Feikje Reinders) And how are they related to the one who died at age 21 in 1825 (son of Pieter Dirks and Marijke Heeres)?

P.S. I'm hoping I can finish renaming the Burgerlijke Stand for Zuid-Holland and getting the linked place pages specified by the time the 1940 census comes out.

--Pkeegstra 17:57, 26 February 2012 (EST)

I merged the two Pieter Pieters Post families that were on WR since they were duplicates. However, your Pieter Post and mine are different people, so I created a new page for yours Person:Pieter Post (12). It doesn't appear the Pieter who died in 1825 was related to either Pieter Posts (how is that for a confusing paragraph :)

I appreciate all of your work with the Zuid-Holland places and Burgerlijke Stand sources! --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:44, 26 February 2012 (EST)

van Mekeren, Maria Elisabeth Bil [27 February 2012]

Dear Jennifer

Anna Brouwer is not the wife of Herman Rijks van Mekeren, but his mother. Maria Elisabeth Bil is his wife.

IVa. Herman Rijck van Mekeren, zn. van Rij(c)k Harmansz. van Mekeren (IIIa) (soldaat in het Staatse leger) en Anna Hendriks Brouwers, ged. op 17 okt 1709 (do) te Wageningen15, tr. (ongeveer 23 jaar oud) in 1733, kerk.huw. in 1733 met Maria Elisabeth Bil .

	Uit dit huwelijk 2 kinderen: 
	1.  	Rijk Hermans , ged. NH op 26 mei 1737 (zo) te Arnhem25, volgt Va. 
	2. 	Willem Jurjen , ged. NH op 17 nov 1738 (ma). 

greetings

Jake Heeringa--JS 07:52, 27 February 2012 (EST)

Also, in viewing those pages I noticed some mojibake in the text for Rijk Hermans van Meekeren "GalileÙrkerk". (Something evidently went astray between Latin-1 and UTF-8.) I'd fix it myself but I'm not sure what the correct reading should be. --Pkeegstra 09:34, 27 February 2012 (EST)

Jake, I renamed Family:Herman van Meekeren and Maria Bil (1) and Person:Maria Bil (2) to reflect this information. Pkeegstra, I edited Rijk's page and changed Ù to ë. Thank you both, --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:52, 27 February 2012 (EST)

Leontine´s parents [27 February 2012]

thanks Jennifer. By the way: are these pages searchable ? Yours Jurgen--Jurgen Tuttipole 10:22, 27 February 2012 (EST)

They are searchable. On the Family talk:F von Breustedt and Elmine Baroness Maydell (1) page there is a link that says "this book". If you click that link it will bring you to the book. They appear on page 385.

On another note, I see you have been editing the Source:Family History Library Catalog page. I reverted your edits. This is a Source page for general information about the Family History Library Catalog, so specific information about your ancestors would not belong on that page. Is there a problem that caused you to edit that page that I can help you with? --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:26, 27 February 2012 (EST)

o.k. Jennifer Hopefully, I´ll get some info on Leontine´s youth (I have my site in German, so as to attract friends of the von Breustedts http://villagetop.homepage.t-online.de/eltern.htm

I`m sorry keeping you busy so much Regards Jurgen

No need to apologize Jurgen, I don't mind your questions. However, I think I misinterpreted your question above. I thought you meant was the book I referenced on that talk page searchable. I now believe you mean are WeRelate's pages searchable. Yes, WeRelate's pages can be found by searching a site like Google. It takes a bit of time for Google to find the pages. --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:46, 27 February 2012 (EST)

searchable [27 February 2012]

Hello dear Jennifer, you write:

I now believe you mean are WeRelate's pages searchable. Yes, WeRelate's pages can be found by searching a site like Google

well.yes that was excactly I had in mind Regards--Jurgen Tuttipole 12:39, 27 February 2012 (EST)

To Whom is Willem Hoogsteen Married? [2 March 2012]

Jennifer, Could you perhaps have a look at this and see if you can find some innocuous explanation. In the Netherlands clearly Willem Hoogsteen marries Elizabeth Westra 1880 Grijpskerk Akte 22. But when you look at the Michigan censuses (1900, 1910) it sure looks like he's with Elizabeth's sister Janna. And I sure can't find a marriage in either Netherlands or Michigan for that one. Nor the death of Elizabeth. --Pkeegstra 17:31, 28 February 2012 (EST)

There is more information on this site. It appears that Elizabeth died in Michigan, and Willem then married her sister Janna. This site does show a marriage for Willem and Janna between 1877-1883. --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:57, 28 February 2012 (EST)

That's good to hear that everything was aboveboard, since I just realized those are my family; Elizabeth and Janna are nieces of my triple-great-grandmother Ymkje. I know J. Bergsma, he is my third cousin on my father's side. I didn't realize he had a site besides his RootsWeb site. Curiously, the Westras and their Hoogsteen children are my relatives on my mother's side. --Pkeegstra 20:05, 28 February 2012 (EST)

FWIW, Bergsma turns out also to be my sixth cousin on my mother's side. --Pkeegstra 13:40, 2 March 2012 (EST)

Frank Alfred Anderson [1 March 2012]

Is there someway that we can merge the two entries for Frank Alfred Anderson? Frank Alfred Anderson was born 8 Jul 1851 at Slåstorp, Åsbo, Östergotlands, Sweden. One record includes his children and the second is not nearly as complete.

Thank you for you help in this matter.

Roger Josephson--Rjosephson 23:31, 28 February 2012 (EST)

I merged the two pages for you into Person:Frank Anderson (23). If you find other pages that you'd like to merge, there are instructions here or I'll certainly be glad to help. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:13, 29 February 2012 (EST)

Thank you for merging the two items for Frank Alfred Anderson.--Rjosephson 22:45, 29 February 2012 (EST)

Jan Klazes Westra [6 March 2012]

Jennifer, family tradition has it that Lijsbeth Jans Westra has parents Jan Klazes Westra (1767-1812) and Hiltje Klazes (1768-1810). (The image of her death record supports much of that.) You have a Jan Klazes Westra also from Kimswerd whose father is Klaas Jans Westra. Do you have evidence handy that can confirm that Lijsbeth and Klaas are siblings? --Pkeegstra 13:38, 2 March 2012 (EST)

Person:Lijsbeth Westra (3) and Person:Klaas Westra (17) are siblings. Their birth/christening records on Tresoar say respectively: "Dochter van Jan Clases Westra en Hittje Clases" and "Zoon van Jan Klazes Westra en Hittje Klazes". Note the spelling for the mother is different than your version (Hittje). --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:22, 2 March 2012 (EST)

Thank you! In the death record it looks like there's only one letter, so I guess that's most likely Hitje. But I'm still working on reading the script. --Pkeegstra 15:57, 2 March 2012 (EST)

I'm not finding him at Tresoar, but I think the overlijden akte B 4 Arum from Wonseradeel 1812 (Jan Klaases Westra at AlleFriezen) is of a sibling of the following, and confirms Klaas Tjallings and Lysbeth Douwes:

Wonseradeel, dopen, geboortejaar 1762, doopjaar 1789
Dopeling: Jorke Klases Westra
Geboren op 25 juli 1762 in Kimswerd
Gedoopt op belijdenis op 22 november 1789 in Burgwerd/Hichtum/Hartwerd
Zoon van Klaas Tjallings en Lysbet Douwes

Wonseradeel, dopen, geboortejaar 1751, doopjaar 1780
Dopeling: Douwe
Geboren op 6 maart 1751 in Kimswerd
Gedoopt op belijdenis op 16 april 1780 in Burgwerd/Hichtum/Hartwerd
Zoon van Klaas Tjallings en Lysbet Douwes

(Not sure why they both waited twenty-odd years to be baptized.) Do you agree? I would be grateful if you could confirm the absence of a doop record for Jan at Tresooar. --Pkeegstra 17:04, 6 March 2012 (EST)

I believe Jan, Jorke, and Douwe are siblings. I cannot find Jan's birth/baptism record either, but this site shows additional siblings in this family. I believe the Mennonites baptized their children much later. Also, these two records are "Gedoopt op belijdenis" (baptism at confession). If other Dutch users are reading this message, maybe they can confirm this. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:15, 6 March 2012 (EST)

Cool, Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland [4 March 2012]

The place page for Cool, Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland has been redirected to Rotterdam itself. But there is still a source page for Cool. NL Wikipedia does not know of Cool ever having been a gemeente, so can the page perhaps just be deleted? Nothing links to it. --Pkeegstra 17:47, 2 March 2012 (EST)

Read in Wikipedia: De naam Cool komt al voor op een oorkonde uit 1280. Cool was een ambachtsheerlijkheid ten westen van Rotterdam. Van 1809 tot 1816 was Cool een zelfstandige gemeente. In 1816 werd Cool door Rotterdam geannexeerd.--paulsnip 18:09, 2 March 2012 (EST)

OK, I'll put Cool back. Thank you for pointing me away from the misleading former gemeente page. --Pkeegstra 06:37, 3 March 2012 (EST)

What about "Hoek van Holland"? I only see the word "deelgemeente" in NL Wikipedia, not the words "zelfstandige gemeente". (Sorry, my Dutch is very limited.) So does it need a Burgerlijke Stand page, or not? (And does the 1900 rule mean that the place page should be "Hoek van Holland, 's-Gravenzande, Zuid-Holland"? --Pkeegstra 15:47, 3 March 2012 (EST)

Are these two sources from Cool redundant: Source:Cool, Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. Fiches Collectie Van Het Gaardersarchief, 1728-1810 and Source:Cool, Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. Fiches Collectie Van Het Gaardersarchief, 1707-1811? --Pkeegstra 16:05, 3 March 2012 (EST)

Pkeegstra, I'm going to look at this in more detail tomorrow morning, I just didn't want you to think I'd overlooked this message :) --Jennifer (JBS66) 19:49, 3 March 2012 (EST)

OK, no hurry. Place page and Burgerlijke Stand source page for Cool are back in business. Hoek van Holland has a place page (under Rotterdam), and never did have a Burgerlijke Stand source page. --Pkeegstra 20:23, 3 March 2012 (EST)

I like what you've done with the Cool place page! It was not the correct thing for me to have redirected it to Rotterdam, and I thank you for fixing it.

Regarding the Gaardersarchief pages, I do think they can be combined into one source. I would title it just Gaardersarchief and leave off the date range. Then, list each FHC link on that page.

I would place Hoek van Holland under 's-Gravenzande. It appears to have been a part of that gemeente until 1914. From what I can tell (using Google Translate), Hoek van Holland at some point tried to manage as its own gemeente, but I am not yet sure that records for that are official or under 's-Gravenzande's control.

There is one thing that we've not discussed yet. When a place was a gemeente before 1900 but was absorbed into another municipality, we title the place page as it was around 1900. One example is Place:Charlois, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. It was a gemeente until 1895. Since it was part of Rotterdam around 1900, we'd title it Charlois, Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. However, how should we title the Burgerlijke Stand source page? Most source pages are titled with the geographic hierarchy that matches the place page. However, there is text somewhere here on WR that says you can title Source pages as they were at the time of the event. I think this could add an unnecessary level of complexity. So, would we title the Burgerlijke Stand source as Charlois, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. Burgerlijke Stand or Charlois, Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. Burgerlijke Stand? --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:51, 4 March 2012 (EST)

The two times so far I handled cases like that, I made the source names match the 4-tiered place names. (It was the two Hoogeveens, as I recall.) But there were compelling circumstances in that two places had the same name and were distinguished only by their containing gemeente. Or I would have had to keep the original FHC titles "X (bij Y)" which didn't match the place page name at all. I can live with that as a general rule, absent a clamor for the alternative. There may have been one or two gemeenten I've already done I wasn't consistent about in that regard; I should be able to pick them out of the list and fix them up. --Pkeegstra 08:27, 4 March 2012 (EST)

nicolaas vis (NIcholas Fisher) [4 March 2012]

Hi, My name is Jean Keogh and I noticed the above name Nicolaas Vis (I knew him as Nicholas Fisher). He married my Great Aunt, Edith Yeoumans in Nottingham,England and they then emigrated to Winnipeg in Canada where they resided until they both passed away. As a couple Aunt Edie and Uncle Nick only visited England a couple of times - one visit in particular was for a family reunion.

Although I have a couple of photographs of Nicholas when he resided in Winnipeg and the family reunion, I wonder whether you have any family photographs of Nicholas with his parents and siblings.

I was also wondering where you are descended from.

I look forward to hearing from you shortly - Jean xx--Jean keogh 08:22, 4 March 2012 (EST)

Hello Jean, thank you for your note. I am not actually related to this family. I am working on a project to document the births and marriages of Ferwerderadeel & Leeuwarderadeel, Friesland. I hope you will consider adding your information and photos to his WeRelate page, they would be great additions! --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:34, 4 March 2012 (EST)

nicolaas vis (NIcholas Fisher) [4 March 2012]

Hi Jennifer, I forwarded an email to you earlier today - I am not familiar with this site and wondered whether you could possibly contact me by the conventional method of email.Thanks Jean Keogh.--Jean keogh 16:16, 4 March 2012 (EST)

nicolaas vis (NIcholas Fisher) [4 March 2012]

Hi Jennifer - I have just found your message relating to all the information you have collated with regard to the Vis family - would you happen to know of anyone who is connected with this family - if so, could you pass my name and email address on to them. If you forward your email address the conventional way, I will scan the photographs in question and forward them on to you. Regards, Jean Keogh.--Jean keogh 16:19, 4 March 2012 (EST)

Featured Page [6 March 2012]

Hi Jennifer, just wanted you to know that your page, Ferwerderadeel, is this week's WeRelate Featured Page! Thanks and keep up the good work:)

Best regards,

Jim:)--Delijim 18:53, 6 March 2012 (EST)

Terpstra - Andrae [9 March 2012]

Hi Jennifer, I see you are watching Rein Terpstra and Maaike Andrae. I have info for Andrew Terpstra b. 16 Jan 1880 Netherlands; father = R. Terpstra; mother = Mary Andre. Could Andrew be the son of Rein & Maaike? --Susan Irish 02:28, 9 March 2012 (EST)

Let me please add a comment. I think your right. Andrew then woud be called Anne. See the next link. [4] You can find the first 2 children on www.allefriezen.nl --paulsnip 06:22, 9 March 2012 (EST)

Thank you for your comment Paul. Yes, Anne (Andrew) was the son of Rein and Maaike (Anne is a male name in Friesland). I added a page for him: Person:Anne Terpstra (21). --Jennifer (JBS66) 08:01, 9 March 2012 (EST)

How about Herman Terpstra b. 4 Nov 1876 Netherlands; was he a brother to Andrew/Anne? --Susan Irish 13:05, 9 March 2012 (EST)

Herman is not the child of Rein and Maaike. He is most likely Person:Harmen Terpstra (4), son of Wybren Terpstra and Antje Vermeer. I added in the other children of Family:Rein Terpstra and Maaike Andrae (1) born in the Netherlands. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:37, 9 March 2012 (EST)

Albrandswaard, Zuid-Holland [19 March 2012]

In 1817 Portugaal went into (old) Albrandswaard and in 1842 it went back to Portugaal. In 1985 Poortugaal went into (new) Albrandswaard. Right now Albrandswaard exists as Place:Albrandswaard, Poortugaal, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. One way to capture all the trends, it seems to me, would be to keep (old) Albrandswaard under Portugaal (since it was there in 1900) just like it is now and make a new place page for the 1985 gemeente Albrandswaard. Does this make sense? --Pkeegstra 20:45, 12 March 2012 (EDT)

I think the correct name now is Portugaal, Gemeente Albrandswaard, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands as Rhoon also belongs to Albrandswaard. --BenS 04:35, 13 March 2012 (EDT)

That sounds right for the current structure, but WeRelate uses the "1900 rule" to define structure. So Poortugaal gets to keep its top-level position, because it was a gemeente in 1900, but we call it "voormalige gemeente". A recognized exception to the 1900 rule is new places, so I'm suggesting we call the new Albrandswaard a new place and set up separate place pages for old Albrandswaard and new Albrandswaard.

My feeling is that it would be more confusing to have both Place:Albrandswaard, Poortugaal, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands and Place:Albrandswaard, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. If we took the "old" and "new" out of the equation, then we are left only with a municipality (Albrandswaard) that went through a series of changes. The WeRelate title only shows a snapshot in time (1900) - but the place page itself can show all of these redistricting details. --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:48, 13 March 2012 (EDT)

OK, I'll see if I can make it work. It would be handy if each "also located in" could specify a different "type", but that would be a substantial restructuring of the underlying database. The present gemeente Albrandswaard may have to appear as a "voormalige gemeeente". --Pkeegstra 10:51, 13 March 2012 (EDT)

I found another case like that. Korendijk was the name of the gemeente before 1817; it went into Goudswaard, and was there in 1900, and now Goudswaard and some others have merged and taken the name Korendijk. (Actually, it's a bit more complex than that, because old Korendijk split, but I don't think that changes the solution.) So I'll make one place page Korendijk, Goudswaard, Zuid-Holland. And I'll use the same Burgerlijke Stand page for both old and new Korendijk. That's the plan, right? --Pkeegstra 17:52, 14 March 2012 (EDT)

Sorry, I just realized that I'd forgotten to respond to your question. Yes, I believe that creating a place for Korendijk, Goudswaard, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands would be the right approach. btw, I learned something this morning that may help the gemeente/voormalige gemeente situation. I thought that when Dallan changed the place type field, that multiple types were no longer allowed. However, you can apparently still use a comma to separate multiple types in that field. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:37, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for your welcome! [19 March 2012]

--Nancapam 16:24, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

I hope I am making changes in the correct way. I added some pictures today that I hope will be helpful. Yes, Harold is still alive, but his wife Jeannette is not. Wish you could add live people too then fill in death dates when that happens. I think that would make the info more up to date. I came across your page quite by accident. Our family had a reunion several years ago so have quite a bit of info. If you want me to stop filling in info that I have, please let me know. Thanks, Carolyn--Nancapam 16:33, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Hi Carolyn, I think your additions are great, so please continue adding what you know! I don't believe we're related, but I've added a bunch of Friesland>Whitinsville immigrants as a little side project. There are so many privacy concerns regarding living people that WeRelate's policy does not allow creating pages for living people. You can use templates such as Template:Pedigree3 to connect family lines using a chart on your User page though.

I see that you've added information on Koopmans. The nephew of Sjoerd Koopmans came to the U.S., but there is no further information on him after his arrival at Ellis Island in 1923. His name was Minne Wiersma. You don't happen to have any tidbits of information on him do you? (Jennifer Swart) --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:05, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Minne Wiersma [20 March 2012]

--Nancapam 17:38, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Could that also be Minke Wiersma?--Nancapam 17:39, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Most likely not. Minke is a female name and Minne was male. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:14, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

I found his name on a website that seems to fit, but it's in dutch and I can't translate. The web page is: http://www.geni.com/people/Minne-Dirks-Wiersma/6000000013741485207. Carolyn--Nancapam 22:11, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Taeke vs. Teake Oosterman [20 March 2012]

He always spelled his name as Teake, on the immigration records it's written as Tuke. He was my grandfather. Tx, Carolyn--Nancapam 22:15, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

The convention on WR for Dutch immigrants is their birth name is used as their primary name/page title and alternate spellings/immigrant names are added below as alt. names. Teake is a misspelling/Americanization of his true Dutch name. Taeke is the spelling that appears on his birth certificate and is the correct spelling for that name in the Netherlands. It would be similar to Aaltje becoming Annie when she is in the U.S. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:21, 20 March 2012 (EDT)

Okay! Thanks so much for setting me straight on this, I truly appreciate it. I didn't realize it. I don't know where you are located, but I'm in Massachusetts, so just going by that which I know. Again, thank you! Carolyn--Nancapam 12:55, 20 March 2012 (EDT)

ij of y? [24 March 2012]

hoi, is it Meyer or Meijer? --henk 15:15, 21 March 2012 (EDT)

Hoi! Wouldn't it depend on what it says on the birth/marriage/death certificate? Genlias has entries for both Meijer and Meyer. Is there a particular person you are asking about? --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:22, 21 March 2012 (EDT)

I'm working on Arie Meijer In Genlias it's ij in the US census y. Of course i use ij but I was wondering if there is a convention for this kind of names.

I know that in WR we can use ALT names, but when I search I'm not sure if the Alt name can be found,

I was just storming in my brain :=)

A storm in your brain ;-) The alt names are indeed searchable. Usually, the convention here is to put their birth spelling as the "primary" name and list the alternate spellings/immigrant names as alt names. Most of the ij names turn to y over here. --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:43, 21 March 2012 (EDT)

I had a curious one in researching some Wijbengas where during a certain time frame they were in GENLIAS with 'y' in one province, and 'ij' in another. I think Friesland and Zuid-Holland respectively. The lesson I learned from that and other orthographic oddities was always to cut & paste the exact name as found in that specific source record in the text field of the source specification. --Pkeegstra 05:46, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

The ij/y topic is a confusing one (I still don't have it down 100%). From what I understand, Friesland uses y more often than the rest of the country. Also, there are 'typically' Frisian names like Sytske that uses the y rather than ij. Then, to further confuse us :) Tresoar modified their database changing ij's to y's to "restrict the number of variants". Sometimes, you'll see the index says y and the document itself says ij. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:22, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

1 of my ancestors was Sicco Roorda van Eysinga, later they aonly used Roorda, but 1 descendant changed his name in the late 1800's in Roorda van Eijsinga (with a ij, some of his descendants spelled Eijsinga with an y, because that was mor Frisian and looks more "noble" On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(digraph)is an article about this. when I speak f.i wij (we) and I listen good what I say I can hear the j so it sounds a little bit like weijj ( dutch is a difficult language even for a Frisian/Groninger like me ;-))--henk 14:47, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

I'm sorry, I haven't found Menne as of yet. Still looking.--Nancapam 22:52, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Tjitske Andree [23 March 2012]

I have a Tjitske Andree in Grand Rapids. Is it by any chance one of yours?

--Pkeegstra 17:53, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

It's not mine because she died in 1912. Could it be this one? Her brother Roelof settled in Grand Rapids. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:28, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

OK, that looks like a good fit. Thanks! Next question, can you convince yourself that despite some discrepancies in date of birth, this is her daughter Wagenaar. --Pkeegstra 19:52, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

I have more questions than answers right now... I'm logging off soon, and I may not be able to work on this again until the weekend, but here are my thoughts:

• Your Person:Harm Wagenaar (1) may be Person:Harmen Wagenaar (5). That is a guess at this point until we get more info
• In the 1900 census the wife is called Tojke, but the birth month and year match Person:Tjitske Andrae (3)
• In the 1910 census the wife is called Mary.
• Here is the marriage record for Henry Joling & Anna Wagner --Jennifer (JBS66) 20:27, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

I noticed the match with Person:Harmen Wagenaar (5), but an internet source of Smidtmans said my Harm was born in Noord-Holland (probably Broek op Lagendijk). So more research is needed. The marriage record for Anna and Henry is great. I don't think I even looked for it because I had never seen Henry anywhere but Denver. --Pkeegstra 20:53, 22 March 2012 (EDT)

I found Harm & Tjitske's burial info, it's definitely the same Harm. His wife Tjitske was buried in Redlands, CA and Harm's burial is here: Harmen Jans Wagenaar. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:47, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Here is their 1920 census info in CA. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:50, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Thank you very much! Both Harm & Tjitske should have cards in the California Death Index untranscribed part 1905-1939 which should have useful confirming info. I'll see if I can track those down before I get back home to my dialup internet (where FamilySearch image search doesn't work). --Pkeegstra 09:49, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

So glad I was able to help and in turn I thank you very much also for the info!--Nancapam 13:46, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Nancapam, I'm connected to the Bangmas who I think have Whitinsville connections, but I haven't gotten to that part of my tree yet. Do you know them? Did that missing guy Minne ever turn up? I can try asking my Whitinsville contacts.... --Pkeegstra 15:58, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

Vriesland Cemetery [27 March 2012]

Did you see that Vriesland Cemetery is already defined in Ottawa County in Vriesland (inhabited place)? (I would have moved it, but I'm working my way thru the county alphabetically, and not yet up to 'V'.) --Pkeegstra 13:40, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

No, I didn't see that, thanks for letting me know. Place:Vriesland Cemetery, Zeeland (township), Ottawa, Michigan, United States would be the correct one, right, because we are putting the Michigan cemeteries underneath the Township? I made a page for Old Vriesland Cemetery as well.

btw, I created these pages because I'm working on a small project to document the passengers on the Vesta from Rotterdam>NY in 1847. The leader of the voyage was the founder of Vriesland, Michigan, Marten Ypma. (I always go off on research tangents when I get a new book from the library :-) --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:14, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

Someone from my church said the other day that someone else from my church came over in 1847. So I'll be interested in taking a look. And yes, Zeeland Township is the appropriate defining location for a cemetery (unless it's inside Zeeland City limits, and it's not). If it really is located in the unincorporated community (and since unincorporated communities don't have official borders, that's a judgement call) it's OK to add an "also located" mention. It looks like the person who defined Vriesland used the cemetery as the defining location, and I don't have access to my maps right now, so I can't say how close the cemetery is to the unincorporated place. I'll look tonight. --Pkeegstra 14:37, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

I moved Vriesland (community) to its traditional crossroads and noted the relationship to Drenthe (community) exactly two miles north. I redirected the cemetery located in the community and put clarifying text on both Old Vriesland and Vriesland cemeteries. (Neither cemetery can really be said to be located in Vriesland.) (How long does it take the category page to reindex? It still shows Vriesland Cemetery twice.) --Pkeegstra 06:50, 27 March 2012 (EDT)

I figured out that problem. Even thought the page had a redirect, the parser was still picking up the category specification. So I removed the category specification, and it's fixed now. The problem I haven't figured out is why I can't include a category page (like in this sentence) in double brackets in running text. Test. --Pkeegstra 09:54, 27 March 2012 (EDT)

You need to put a colon before the word Category, or it will place my talk page in the category. Example-> [[:Category:Cemeteries of Ottawa, Michigan, United States]] will produce Category:Cemeteries of Ottawa, Michigan, United States. Thanks for fixing these cemetery pages! --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:02, 27 March 2012 (EDT)

OK, I added the colons so your talk page should stop showing up in those categories. --Pkeegstra 11:26, 27 March 2012 (EDT)

I didn't see the name Verbrugge in your manifest, so either it was his earliest ancestor, not one in a direct paternal line, who came over on this ship or his paternal ancestor came over on another ship about this time. --Pkeegstra 06:50, 27 March 2012 (EDT)

Sorry, but no, he hasn't shown up. I'll put out some feelers tho, someone here may remember something. I am located near Whitinsville and yes, I do know some Bangma's. My niece actually married one last year! They are living in CA now as she's going to school for youth ministry. While I was at the Riverdale Cemetery the other day, I took some pictures of some Bangma gravestones too, idk if they are of any use to you or not.--Nancapam 18:00, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

Oops, commented on the wrong thread, sorry!--Nancapam 18:01, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

I'm down in CT, so not too far from you. I've taken some photos at Riverdale and Pine Grove cemeteries as well. You can access them here and here.

Re: Minne, the only other clue that I have is that he applied for naturalization in 1943. There is a handwritten note on his Ellis Island Record that says 3-242215-6/4/43. I tried contacting the National Archives, but they said they'd need to know where he lived in order to help locate his naturalization record. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:35, 26 March 2012 (EDT)

Okay, I plan on calling some relatives tomorrow to see what i can find out.--Nancapam 02:40, 27 March 2012 (EDT)

Jantje Mulder [29 March 2012]

I systematically enumerated all the Jantje Mulders born 1861-1863, and I found one who has no obvious marriage or death record. Can you please have a look, and see if you can provide insight as to whether Jantje Margaretha Mulder is my uncle's wife Jantje Mulder. There is a curious feature that for the most part, the rest of her family is named Mulders. So I searched both names for marriage and death records for her. Her father has no death record either, but his wife dies in Netherlands later than Jantje marries in Grand Rapids. Did she go over first? BTW, thanks for fixing up Mulder versus Lefferts. --Pkeegstra 12:56, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

I have a Person:Jantje Mulders (1) in my project that may fit. Let me add a bit more info for her. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:08, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

OK. So that rules her out twice: wrong name and wrong husband. Next step on the list was to order my Jantje's death certificate from my friends at the Kent County Clerk's. (My Aunt Thea may still come through with a nugget of info, too.) --Pkeegstra 13:26, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

I am always curious if I can find someone who has migrated to the USA, and l saw that the place where Jantje was born had to be Avereest.

In the link underneath you will find information that will be interesting for you I think.

[ http://www.suytberghe.nl/persoon.php?id=I5526]

Greeting --paulsnip 14:24, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

It must be the 1! --henk 14:50, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

It looks good! Many thanks! (Maybe you could help me look for Jacob Karsten next.... He might be related to Dries (Andrew) Karsten from Doornspijk.). --Pkeegstra 15:16, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

Here are the death certificates for Johannes Mulder and Geertje Jonker. --Jennifer (JBS66) 16:19, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

Thanks! It would have been a nice confirmation if my Uncle Hessel were the informant, but both of them outlived him. (And Jantje was in the psychiatric facility by then.) --Pkeegstra 17:24, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

OK here it comes:

[5]

--paulsnip 16:03, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

This is another site of some information about Jacob Karsten. Finding his birthplace and parents seems to be a little more difficult.

Jacob Karsten

Greetings --paulsnip 16:48, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

I think I found him and what I found is on the talk page of Jacob Karsten!--henk 03:43, 29 March 2012 (EDT)

Tresoar - guided group tour [10 April 2012]

Is anybody interested in meeting other Dutch WeRelate researchers and touring Tresoar? I'd like to schedule a group tour at Tresoar sometime during the end of April - beginning of May. Let me know if you are interested in attending. Thank you!--Jennifer (JBS66) 07:41, 1 April 2012 (EDT)

Hello Jennifer. I'm interested to her more about this. Greetings --paulsnip 17:24, 1 April 2012 (EDT) Hallo , Jennifer Lijkt me leuk doe ook mee Gr Herman--herman34 04:51, 2 April 2012 (EDT)

Great! I know that Henk is interested in this as well. I will contact Tresoar today to ask for details about their tours and will post back here when I know more. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:49, 2 April 2012 (EDT)

I heard back from Tresoar and they can do a group tour. A tour includes coffee/tea and lasts 1.5 - 2 hours. The subjects mostly include Tresoar (old books, exhibits, maps, etc), Friesland, and Friesland history/culture. They said that if we have a special interest, they can work that into the tour. Their general hours are:

Monday 	1pm - 5pm
Tuesday 9am - 9pm
Wednesday 9am - 5pm
Thursday 9am - 5pm
Friday 	9am - 5pm
Saturday 9am - 1pm

They will be closed 30 Apr and 5 May.

I was thinking of these possible dates: 27 Apr or the 2, 3, or 4 of May. Which dates work best for each of you, and what preference do you have for time of day? --Jennifer (JBS66) 08:01, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

I reserved these 4 days for you--henk 08:04, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

For me every day is possible except the Wednesday. --paulsnip 11:41, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

This sounds very interesting. Where is it located?--Nancapam 00:01, 5 April 2012 (EDT)

Tresoar is the archive for the province of Friesland and is located in Leeuwarden. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:11, 5 April 2012 (EDT)

Voor mij is elke dag oke het liesfst de middag Gr--herman34 14:47, 5 April 2012 (EDT) Herman

OK, thanks for the info.--Nancapam 15:18, 5 April 2012 (EDT)

I emailed Tresoar to schedule the tour and let them know of our proposed dates/time. I will let everyone know when I hear back from them. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:28, 7 April 2012 (EDT)

If possible nog in Fryday the 27th. I missed that date. I am in Finland than. --paulsnip 09:51, 8 April 2012 (EDT)

I heard back from Tresoar. I will schedule the tour for Vrijdag 4 Mei @ 14:00. --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:40, 10 April 2012 (EDT)

editing Friedrich von Breustedt´s page [4 April 2012]

Hello dear Jenny, how can I edit this page ? Yours Jurgen--Jurgen Tuttipole 14:33, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

Jurgen, you can edit any page (including the page for Person:Friedrich von Breustedt (1)), by clicking on the Edit link on the left side of the page. If you are using WR in German, the link may say bearbeiten instead. --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:41, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

Thanks Jennifer, I wasn´t sure about this " Edit"-button (very lazy, as usual !) ---I wish you Happy Easter Regards Jurgen

Benjamin Pollard (3) [9 April 2012]

Jennifer,

This page Person:Benjamin Pollard (3) is very long and is not nearly finished. Can you give me some tips on how I might make this page more presentable? I created a page for User:Txbluebell6/Benjamin Pollard Deeds but I could not add an image to that page.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.--Txbluebell6 11:59, 7 April 2012 (EDT)

Hi Pamela, you have created a wonderfully detailed page! I have a few ideas for the layout that you may want to experiment with.

• Add an introductory paragraph with a general overview of his life. Wikipedia does this before any of the headings so that it appears above the table of contents.
• WR allows you to move the Facts and Events section if you don't want it at the top of the page. You can also place it underneath a heading of a different title with this code:

==heading title==
<events/>

• You may consider experimenting with attaching images to sources, an example of this is: Person:Peternella van der Poel (1). I'm not quite sure how that would work with your references though.
• Move the Amherst, North Carolina Deeds link up to the previous line. For me, my eye goes from "see the following..." to the next heading, and I missed the link at first.
• Indent "Benjamin Pollard Senior sells Alexander and Eade" so that it is on the same level as "Benjamin Acquires Use of Alexander and Henry". You may consider putting each of these 3 headings underneath one with a more general title. Is there a way that you could keep section 5.5 "1809 A Purchase of Slaves" together with this?
• The section "Benjamin Pollard's Wife - Mary" seems a bit out of place to me. Also the section just below "More deeds" seems like it may be better placed under section 5.
• Your disclaimer becomes lost in the list of references. Instead of a note, you may want to add a section at the end of your text for this.

It seems that you were able to add images to your Benjamin Pollard Deeds page. If you have any more questions on this, just let me know. I look forward to seeing the further developments to his page! --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:53, 9 April 2012 (EDT)

Thanks so much. I'll do these changes and see what I have after that. Pam--Txbluebell6 16:06, 9 April 2012 (EDT)

Aafke Lautenbach (1) [10 April 2012]

Thanks Jennifer for letting me know. Brizziegal--Brizziegal 08:19, 10 April 2012 (EDT)

GoogleBot finds "WeRelate :Person:Elmine von Maydell (1) - Genealogy " [11 April 2012]

Hello dear Jenny, some time back I asked you : Will "Person:Elmine von Maydell (1) - Genealogy" be found ? I´ve just noticed that Google DID find my entry Yours Jurgen

Person:Elmine von Maydell (1) - Genealogy www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Elmine_von_Maydell_(1) 29 Feb 2012 – Leontine von Breustedt1865 - 1944. Add another spouse & children ... mother of my great-grandmother. Leontine Hoffmann nee von Breustedt ...--Jurgen Tuttipole 17:40, 11 April 2012 (EDT)

I'm glad to hear that! --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:15, 11 April 2012 (EDT)

Person:Simon Mollema (2) [12 April 2012]

Hi Jennifer, I got Simon Mollema's death date from graftombe.nl and am unsure as to how I should source this on his page. Please help! Thank you, Johanna--Brizziegal 01:03, 12 April 2012 (EDT)

Hi Johanna, I edited Simon's page and added the burial location and Graftombe.nl source as an example. --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:02, 12 April 2012 (EDT)

[20 apr 2012]

Moi Jennifer, What is the problem with google maps? --Lidewij 14:50, 20 April 2012 (EDT)

Lidewij, on which page are you having a problem with the maps? What is the problem that you are having with the maps? On Place:Ruwenhof, Neede, Gelderland, Netherlands the map appears correctly for me. --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:54, 20 April 2012 (EDT)

I see no google map with all locations. So my problem. I will close and restart the computer. Groet, --Lidewij 15:03, 20 April 2012 (EDT)

Let me know if you still have problems after restarting your computer. You can also tell me the browser/version you are using. --Jennifer (JBS66) 15:18, 20 April 2012 (EDT)

Only after I surfed on Google Chrome WeRelate, the maps came back on Internet Explorer. Groet, --Lidewij 16:53, 20 April 2012 (EDT)

Is Froukje Lieuwes de Jong the same as Froukje Lywes Rozema, or is there an Error? [25 April 2012]

I find in the birth record for Jan Gerrits Rosema that it lists as parents Gerrit Roelofs Rozema and Froukje Lywes Rozema. You are watching a suspiciously similarly named couple Gerrijt Roelofs Rozema and Froukje Lieuwes de Jong. Jan Gerrits is born in the middle of their children, so it's not a second wife. Is it merely a scribal error, or is it one of those odd cases where a person uses two last names? Or, I suppose the least likely, are these really two totally different couples?

Does this work? If not, Aktenummer: B 5 Dantumawoude Dantumadeel Geboorte 1813.

--Pkeegstra 15:32, 23 April 2012 (EDT)

The parents of Jan Gerrits Rosema are Gerrijt Roelofs Rozema and Froukje Lieuwes de Jong. It appears the use of Froukje Rozema was a mistake limited to his birth certificate. His death certificate shows her name as Froukje Lieuwes de Jong. --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:33, 23 April 2012 (EDT)

Many thanks! I'll annotate the source correspondingly. --Pkeegstra 21:32, 23 April 2012 (EDT)

I'll be lazy and not create a new topic, but are you able to explain to me what "grootouders bruid vermeld" means on a marriage record such as Bedum 1833 Aktenummer: 12? (She's 38, is it about still needing parental consent?) I'd seen it once before, but lost track of where, so I couldn't ask anyone. (I assume the "Wettiging 3 kinderen" has to do with pre-existing children of the marriage, right?) --Pkeegstra 07:16, 24 April 2012 (EDT)

I believe that "grootouders bruid vermeld" means the grandparents of the bride are mentioned in the marriage record. I don't know if there is a specific reason for this, or if it is just a note that is made in the index when grandparents happen to be mentioned. It appears that only the grandparents of the bride are mentioned, not the groom. Also, I believe the great-grandparents may also be mentioned. It says: "onechte dochter van wijlen Grietje Derks Bulthuis"... "klein dochter van wijlen Derk Freerks in van wijlen Trientje Jans". Regarding "wettiging 3 kinderen" - this means that 3 children were made legal/legitimate - they are listed by name in the marriage certificate as Johannes, Derk, and Jacob. --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:21, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for looking into this and passing on the explanation. Those are the three preexisting children I found birth records for by looking for last name 'Bulthuis'. So I put 'Bulthuis' as an alt name on their respective pages, with primary name 'Rozeboom'. (I also found no death records for Trientje or sons Johannes and Jacob, so I suspect at least some of them went to America with granddaughter Trijntje Rozeboom.) --Pkeegstra 09:33, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Since the children were not recognized until the marriage, the birth records are listing only the mother along with her surname. It appears that Trientje came over with Reina Mooi (listed as Roozenboom on the passenger list - though it is somewhat illegible), her daughters Reina (born abt 1859) and Jacoba? (born abt 1860). They arrived in NY 8 May 1879 aboard the Schiedam. Trientje was 84 years old! --Jennifer (JBS66) 10:09, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

That's a pretty adventurous 84-year old! I found Jakoba and Reina. Any idea if they went on to Whatcom County with Trijntje Rozeboom and Jan Helder? --Pkeegstra 12:02, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

In 1880 they were in Holland, Michigan. In 1900 Jacob is living alone, widowed, in Holland, Michigan. --Jennifer (JBS66) 12:38, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Here are the death certificates for Jacob Roozenboom and Reina (b 1823) --Jennifer (JBS66) 12:43, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

And here is Trijntje's death info. --Jennifer (JBS66) 12:49, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Jacoba married Arend Bos. Here is her death info --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:00, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

(Our edits collided) Jacoba married Arend Bas. (Is that name correct, or should that be Bos or Baas?) If Reina is Kina, she married Luitjen Lanting. I still need to check if they stayed in MI or went to WA. --Pkeegstra 13:04, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

OK, so it looks like Jacoba settled in Kalamazoo and Reina settled in Holland, MI. Now I'm working on Johannes. --Pkeegstra 13:19, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

I'll get back to Johannes. Do you agree that this Arend matches this emigration record? --Pkeegstra 13:43, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

I think there is a good chance they are the same, but the emigration record has limited info to prove a connection. I did find this, which may be Arend's death record:

Name:	Arend J Bos
Birth Date:	abt 1855
Birth Place:	Netherlands
Death Date:	18 Jul 1931
Death Place:	Kalamazoo, Kalamazoo, Michigan
Death Age:	76
Occupation:	Blacksmith
Race:	White
Marital Status:	Married
Gender:	Male
Father Name:	John Bos
Father Birth Place:	Netherlands
Mother Name:	Gratje Boven
Mother Birth Place:	Netherlands
FHL Film Number:	2075002

In the emigration record, he is listed as a smidsknecht (blacksmith helper) and the death record as a blacksmith. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:59, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

That looks pretty convincing. What dataset has Michigan death records past 1930? Ancestry? (I have an account there now, but I keep going to FamilySearch because I know it better.) --Pkeegstra 14:38, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

That record was from Ancestry. Their database appears to come from this one at FS. --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:52, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Bushouse and Veleke [2 May 2012]

How long should I give an apparently inactive user before I merge one of his families with one of my families? I am quite sure the families match despite the sizable data differences because Bushouse is such a rare name. Along those lines, note this obituary.

Oh, and one other thing. In cases like B. Orin Wade, is it reasonable to use "Orin" in the first name position in the page primary key? Since evidently that is how he was known.

Also, do you have any idea what the Netherlands spelling is for Veleke? I didn't get even a single hit with that spelling from GENLIAS. (I'm assuming the birth record for te Grootenhuis is right there in the Dinxperlo microfilms waiting for me to get the chance to look for it (my network is too slow to do FamilySearch images, and my girlfriend's internet is down.)

--Pkeegstra 17:13, 30 April 2012 (EDT)

The name Veleke is not a common name but there is a link on Genealogie on line:

GenealogieOnLine

The name Aart Velema is also on EliisIsland.

Greetings --paulsnip 17:51, 30 April 2012 (EDT)

I believe that Family:Arthur Wade and Ethel Bushouse (1) and Family:B Wade and Kate Bushouse (1) are actually different families. Here is the 1930 census for Arthur D and Ethel M Wade and here is the 1930 census for B Orin and Katherine D Wade.

I'm not sure if you found the birth certificate for Clara Te Grootenhuis yet, but here it is. Her birth name was Grada Johanna. Regarding Aart Veleke - there are some hits on Genlias for Veleke - it's likely that Aart's birth isn't indexed in Genlias. In addition to the link Paul posted above, there is some info here about a Veleke family. Each of these resources have different birth dates though. I'm on vacation at the moment, but I can look into this more when I return if you want--Jennifer (JBS66) 14:49, 2 May 2012 (EDT).

Thanks! Yeah, there's not a single Veleke birth indexed on GENLIAS, but I found a couple marriages, including one for Gerrit which if he were Aart's father would match his grandson's name. The couple seems to be from Ermelo, but I haven't checked if they have birth record films yet. Thanks for tracking Clara down for me. And I'll look at the Wades; it would be an amusing coincidence if two people from a small family like the Bushouses both married Wades. --Pkeegstra 15:21, 2 May 2012 (EDT)

One more thing... there is a WWI draft reg card for a Benjamin Orrin Wade, born in Ohio 23 Dec 1892. He was employed by his father, Henry Wade. This may be them in the 1900 census. --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:59, 2 May 2012 (EDT)

According to this death record the Ethel Wade who died in 1967 was not a Bushouse, but a Conklin. [6] --Pkeegstra 15:46, 2 May 2012 (EDT)

Here's their wedding. --Pkeegstra 15:50, 2 May 2012 (EDT)

Pavilion versus Pavillion [5 May 2012]

Sigh, in Kalamazoo County we have a township named Pavilion and inhabited places Pavillion and Pavillion Center. The double-ell spelling is attested on one of my sources, but for sure there's no systematic orthographical distinction between the township and the community. It has been this way for six years; how far back on the back burner can I put this?

(Myself, I would make defining all the townships for Kalamazoo, St. Joseph, and Calhoun Counties (if not the whole MI southern tier) a higher priority than straightening out the various Pavilion places.....)

--Pkeegstra 10:38, 3 May 2012 (EDT)

I agree that defining the townships would be of a higher priority because they'll likely be used more often. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:31, 3 May 2012 (EDT)

OK, all the Pavilions in Kalamazoo County are consistent now. I've populated all the townships for Kalamazoo, St. Joseph, and Van Buren Counties. --Pkeegstra 16:29, 5 May 2012 (EDT)

Another Featured Page - Week of May 7th [10 May 2012]

Hi Jennifer, just wanted to let you know that your Article/Project Page Fryslân 1811/Leeuwarderadeel is up as this week's WeRelate Featured Page! Nice job, amazing detail and sourcing, keep up the good work!

Best regards, have a great week,

Jim:)--Delijim 17:50, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

Thank you! --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:29, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

Leistra and de Vries [10 May 2012]

These are both yours, so maybe you have information that they are not duplicates. Leistra and de Vries and Leijstra and Vries. --Pkeegstra 17:35, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

I merged the families (they were duplicates). --Jennifer (JBS66) 18:21, 10 May 2012 (EDT)