HAYS Surname in Old Augusta, SW Viriginia and Beyond [16 July 2014]
I am a descendant (with Y-DNA tests) of a branch of the HAYS family that settled into Borden Grant before 1740 and, over the decades, migrated down the Shenandoah Valley into SW Virginia and then on to Tennessee, Kentucky and later Missouri(and elsewhere). I have looked at your Tapestry project from time to time with great interest. I saw that the HAYS/HAYES surname was considered for in-depth research and was curious whether that occurred already or was planned for the future?
It would be my pleasure to assist in a project on the HAYS surname in the target area. I have already spent untold hours in personal research and a small fortune on professional genealogists. In other words, I already have a decent base of what is known and unknown on these HAYS people; however, it's too large of a project for one person.
I believe the "WeRelate" wiki format is a superior means of getting accurate information and arbitrating disputed facts. I have expended some minor effort adding some of my family members but have found the process of documenting sources somewhat clunky and difficult. I feel my involvement in a larger project would provide the reason to get better acquainted with the process of creating these pages and documenting the sources.
Regards, Mark A. Hays (925) 323-4300--Motohays 17:38, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Q 00:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi Mark, I'd like to add that it may be easier to break up your research into different "branches" of the Hays family, possibly broken up into geographic regions, listing the records of each branch. This has proven useful in other Tapestry families, and is likely easier for other interested researchers to follow/understand. Bill (Quolla6) and I have done much of the "heavy lifting" in Augusta County, so whatever positive contributions you can make would be greatly appreciated.
Delijim - 17 December 2013
It is a partnership, this effort. I'm sure I speak for Jim as well as myself, that we'd love to have someone else involved in this. I should also add that while I help out with Old Augusta, its Jim that's really doing the heavy lifting.Q 01:06, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello Jim and Bill,
I was delighted to see some additional information on my HAYS people in Virginia and Tennessee; specifically the correct parentage of John Coffee Hays as Harmon A. Hays and Elizabeth Cage. I've had those facts for a while and have been dismayed by the unfortunate propagation of bad information in Emma Siggins White's work on the Walkers.
I'm curious why Harmon's parents have not been added. Is there additional research required or some disputed facts? I have seen previous research mistakes that give Harmon's father as Col. Robert Hays. There is no doubt (in my mind at least) that Harman's parents are John Hays and Rebecca Maxwell (widow of Thomas Maxwell) based on Wilson Co. Deed and Will book entries.
Also, I recently found additional evidence that proves that Robert could not be Harmon's father. If you're interested, you can search Fold3.com in their "War of 1812 Collection" for Harmon Hays. There are a few hits for Harman but there is a particular entry under "Letters to the Adjutant General" concerning Harman's resignation as 2nd Lt. of the Light Dragoons. In his resignation letter he explains to his colonels that his mother has recently written and informed him that the estate of his late father is finally being devised due to a family member that will be traveling back to Tennessee ( from Mississippi if memory serves?) to finalize settlement. This letter is written in Spring of 1814 which fits the estimated death of John Hays in late 1811. My understanding is that Col. Robert Hays did not pass away until 1819. (Q.E.D.??). I understand there is a letter from Harman to Robert that references Robert as "uncle" but I've yet to get a copy.
I personally have photocopies of Wythe Co. Court Order Book entries, land survey and tax records that provide circumstantial evidence that this John Hays lived on the Holston River in the Rich Valley and was Capt. of the local militia. I know when this John left the Holston from these documents. My 4th GGF, William Hays, had his land immediately adjacent to John and was promoted from lieutenant to captain in place of John when he removed to TN. I also know that Rebecca was in the same part of southwest Virginia since she and John deeded land originally owned by Thomas Maxwell in Tazewell Co. on the Clinch River. I've done some research and have information on another family group of HAYSes that lived on the Clinch River in present-day Tazewell/Russell counties. The land owned by my William and his neighbor (likely brother) John Hays is only about 10 miles from the Tazewell/Russell Co. HAYSes which makes me believe they were somehow related. It's also very interesting (to me at least) that a James and Rebeckah Hays from this Clinch HAYS family group sold 400 acres in Feb 1797 after they were already living in Nashville, Davidson Co., TN for some time.
Anyway, it's getting late so I'll end this now but feel free to contact me for additional info or clarification. I shared my mobile phone earlier.
Regards, Mark A. Hays--motohays 08:42, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
While I have an interest in the Hays line, I've not done much personal research on them. Most of what's there is most likely the work of DeliJim. Almost all published genealogies, such as White 1902, have their share of missteps. Usually, those missteps can be laid to the feet of failure to document "facts" with original source documentation. I've not looked at the Hays cards currently on WeRelate to see how well they are documented, but judging between different possibilities always rests on comparison of the original source documentation to see what's best supported. That supporting documentation does not always make its way into the articles immediately. If you agree with what's there now, that's good. If you have additional information to add to the materials, that's also good. If that's something that you aren't in a position to do, that's okay. Eventually, we'll get there. Whether we get there anytime soon depends on what else we are doing at the moment. There are probably 10K worth of documentable people in Old Augusta during the Tapestry people. Last time I checked I think we (mostly Jim) had at least captured cards for about 60% of them. That's pretty amazing all things considered, but that means we probably have about 4K worth of persons yet to add, let alone document. Which is to say, when we get to the Hay's in the process is "probably no time soon". But again, please feel free to document what you have. Anything you add will be gratefully appreciated. Q 13:43, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
We have recently exchanged comments and modifications on my William Hays page. I have a few questions on) 1. formatting in general, 2. adding multi-page PDFs that include text and images together, 3. creating "places" that are the equivalent of another place (eg. when the location is the same but the county changes), 4. understanding your resources and contacts to gather documents, if any.
Also, I would like to share with you information on my HAYS research which might be helpful as you seem to be picking up the HAYS family connections from Borden and Beverley Manor Grant. If you have an interest, I here offer to add you as a guest on my Ancestry.com family tree to have a look at all the original documents that I have gathered; for instance, I have photocopies of the original Orange County records for John and Patrick's importation. I have many other documents in my possession.
Anyway, do you mind having a quick phone conversation? I have been in the IT industry since '86 and, as such, have carpal tunnel issues which makes long comments explaining my research and questions painful. :-) I can deal with it, of course, but a quick call might expedite.
Regards, --motohays 21:35, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
--motohays 21:08, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Duplicate Pages for Old Augusta [21 December 2013]
Hi Bill, a while ago, I think you created a duplicate Old Augusta Settlers page that appears to contain much of the same information as the original Early Settlers of Old Augusta County. I made some changes to the "outlying areas" listing and copied the same changes over to the other page. Do you want to re-direct one of the pages to the other to eliminate the duplicate portions, or would it be easier to separate the information on the pages so it isn't duplicated? Whatever you do is fine with me. Best regards and have a great weekend,
Questioning use of Personal Data table [26 December 2013]
I appreciate that you have created many useful templates and standard table formats, and that some of them probably go back to the early days of WeRelate, when the formatting of a standard WeRelate page might not have been as pleasing as it is today. However, I wonder about the continued use of the Personal Data table, as it simply duplicates info that is in the facts. Not only does this make 2 places to make corrections, but it increases the complexity for the casual user (which I am not, but still ...).
I just updated Moses McSpadden and left the Personal Data table there, but really would prefer to delete at least the top part of it. I can see leaving his children listed, at least until such time as someone decides to create separate person pages for them. But the top part is simply redundant (other than the note on alt birth year, which could be moved elsewhere, although personally I wouldn't even bother mentioning it).
One of the problems I note with the table is that it has such an "official" look to it that it is not clear whether this is just another way of presenting the facts or a citation from an unidentified source (I'm sure you've seen lots of cases of that). Therefore, some people making additions/corrections to the page might decide to fix the WeRelate facts, but leave the Personal Data table alone, being uncertain about its origin - in fact, I almost did that until I realized what the table was. I'm not sure what can/should be done about that, other than putting all the facts in the proper WeRelate places and dispensing with the table. Do you have a problem if I remove the table or parts of the table where I come across it, being sure to leave information (such as the children of Moses McSpadden) that is not elsewhere?--DataAnalyst 17:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Another David Campbell [31 December 2013]
Hi Bill, first of all, Happy New Year to you and your family.:) I've got another Augusta County David Campbell for you to ponder. This one was born in Chester County, PA in 1761 and migrated with his parents in abt. 1767, per his Revolutionary War Pension Application. Maybe you can place him with one of the later Campbell families that migrated to Augusta....
Take care and best regards,
Jim--Delijim 14:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Charles Campbell [1 January 2014]
Hi again Bill, working some Campbell's in Augusta County. I've added some information to the page of Charles Campbell. There are some Ancestry Member Trees citing him as a son of Hugh Campbell and Esther McGill, which appears certainly plausible. There are others claiming he was a son of Charles Campbell and Mary Trotter, but it appears that is unfounded, a different Charles Campbell appears to be their son. Let me know what you think.
Jim:)--Delijim 15:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
I did a data extraction from Ancestry family trees for both couples, Charles Campbell= Mary Alexander, and Charles Campbell=Mary Trotter. While parents range all over the place, the vita for Charles Campbell in these two couples are fairly consistent.
Charles Campbell=Mary Trotter
Charles Campbell=Mary Alexander
There's always at least a little abit of variation in these trees, but the above are typical for the person, and the exceptions are largely trivial variations.
Parents, on the other hand, vary considerably. The most common combinations are:
Charles Campbell=Mary Trotter
Checking Ancestry entries, of course, only gives you what people think. Some of them may have really good reasons to think what they think, but most do not, and their entries are riddle with errors. Undoubtedly there's a reason behind the errors that are made. Traceing backwards we can sometimes work out why they make the errors they do. (They might, for example, have a confusion between father and son), leading to intermixing dates from both in a single entry. Sometimes they are just guessing.
While the parent listings vary considerably, most of the vita are reasonably consistent. Indicating that there are indeed two separate couples involved here. Chalres Campbell married to mary Trotter is the earlier couple. Charles Campbell = Mary Alexander MAY be their son.
Robert Gwinn changes [23 January 2014]
It appears that this new user has discarded quite a bit of information that was useful and added a few things that I don't necessarily agree with..... I'm tempted to rollback his page and have a "conversation" with the user, what do you think?
Jim:)--Delijim 19:39, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Again, to clear up this misunderstanding, I was not planning on being a "one and done." I have a great deal of material on the Gwin(n) family and also have relationships to others who have done some outstanding original research into this family. I was very excited to register with the WeRelate.org website to begin this process. I apologize to you if I have violated your rules by removing some unsourced material and cleaning up some redundant material. However, I am somewhat disappointed to read the comments above--especially that you seem to have drawn some conclusions about my "naïve understanding of YDNA." It reminds me of two people talking within earshot of a third--as in "I can still hear you, you know." LOL!
Hence the importance of communication and collaboration in a "wiki" environment.... :) Certainly not the first time that Bill or I have been "surprised" by changes to Person Pages on WeRelate.... As far as YDNA, I'm sure Bill has probably forgotten more about DNA analysis than I'll ever know, so I'll leave that discussion up to you two "experts"... :) Have a great week,
andrew cowan of Sullivan [20 January 2014]
Who is this Andrew? He has my Robert Cowan's birth and death dates????
da--DAtkinson 03:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Robert Cowan (20) [24 January 2014]
I had an e-mail saying you had changed this site but don't see any comments.
Did you add something?
da--DAtkinson 14:43, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Just doing some format tidying. Added a Block quote, and removed a errant blank space at the head of a paragraph (The blank at the start of a paragraph is subtle que to the wikimedia program to change the font to times roman. The site owner uses it for some specialized formatting, but for most of us, it just makes things look strange). Q 14:44, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Jane Wright [19 February 2014]
Do you know anything more about this David Cowan and Jane Wright? DNA?
da--DAtkinson 02:18, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Another Cowan Dilemma [22 February 2014]
Hi Bill, I know you've been working on the Cowan's in Virginia, and I've been adding records for some in Lunenburg County, maybe you can take a look at them and see if you see them fitting with any others...
Thanks and best regards,
Jim:)--Delijim 19:25, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
As you might have noticed or guessed, this is a complex lineage, much trodden over, and perhaps trodden down, by earlier genealogists. There's a lot of misinformation out there, probably resulting from the blending of data for different folks, and furthered by the lack of hard original source data to support some of the views. There may be a family of Cowans in Lunenberg County that fits some of these descriptions. Its unlikely that they are related to the Seven Brothers line, but I suppose one could craft a very strange migratory path that placed some of the Seven Brothers in Lunenberg County. However, I don't know that there's supporting information for something like that. The Robert Cowan (10)=Susannah Woods is clearly Seven Brothers by YDNA. How he fits in is unclear. He's not one of the traditional Seven Brothers per Fleming, though Fleming does identify him as a son of Major John Cowan, based on his racing of the letters of JB Cowan, and the writings of "Mrs Dunavant" of the DAR. Unfortunately, there's no evidence for Major John Cowan=Mary Walker in Southwest Virginia. Such a person may have existed somewhere, but not in SW VA. Its a very complex story, but to cut to its core, there were two separate story lines, one involving the Margaretsister of Samuel Handley (who was kinsman to the Cowans in the Nine-Mile Creek area of Blount County. Her husband (John I believe) was killed by Indians while going west from Virginia; while Margaret was taken captive The other line is the story of Samuel Cowan and wife Ann Walker. Samuel was also killed (in SW VA) and wife Ann taken captive. These two separate stories were passed down orally though the Nine-Mile Creek Cowan families. JB Cowan was a descendant of this line (From John Cowan son of Samuel and Ann, and also kinsmen of Samuel Handley. In old age he wrote a series of letters from memory, having lost all of his family documentation in a house fire some years previously. He conflated the two stories, and came up with Major John=Mary Walker--- couple who never existed. Fleming used his letterers to craft his interpretation of the family relationship. There's a lot more to the tale, but the waters get deep and muddy very quickly. There's a series of articles on WeRelate that dissect the surviving information. I will be speaking shortly about the issues on the CowanShortList, and I'll cross post to the Tapestry. Q 00:34, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Bill, I had an inkling that the John Cowan/Mary Walker family may have been someone's fantasy since (as you noted) there seems to be no sources to substantiate. The one that appears to have merit in Lunenburg is the William Cowan/Mary Billups family, where there ARE records [Marriage Bond and other] to substantiate their marriage and at least two children....
John willis, son of Abner and Eva [26 February 2014]
I have recently joined Wikitree and found a reference to John Willis, son of Abner. The person has referred to Abner and Eve's daughter Martha as well. I'M pretty sure he is using the info from Abner and Eve' bio. Could you take a look at the children section under John and see if that needs to be corrected? I don't want to edit your work.--ruthnevada 21:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Hi RuthNevada. I checked John son of Abner. I've not added any of his children. Person:John_Willis_(55). My focus is pretty much pre-1800, and I don't usually pursue descendant lines unless there's a specific need. The gentleman who's article you are looking at asked me a few weeks ago for permission to use the bio---which of course is OK, as long as he properly credits h is source. That could either be to me as the source, or less desirably from my perspective, WeRelate. (Or he could get it from one of the other locations where the bio has made its way to. Though those other sources are not maintained, or updated (at least by me.) But it needs to be sourced. Otherwise there's a plagiarism issue. In any case, please feel free to modify whatever you find needs modifying. I like to have things right, whether its my work or someone else's work. Getting it right is the important part. Q 21:46, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Thomas Black [13 June 2014]
Hello, What if any is your relationship to Thomas Black?--Jimmythejet 16:08, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Susannah Gass [19 June 2014]
Your comment on the Susannah Gass page about David Gass' wife being related to the Moore family and possibly her maiden name being Moore ... shouldn't that go on the David Gass and/or his wife Sarah page(s) and not on Susannah's page? There are Kentucky marriage records that confirm that Susannah Gass married James Harris. I haven't heard of the Moore/Gass connection ... but several "sources" alledge that David Gass' mother was a Cowan ... haven't heard of the Moore connection before, but it is possible. Reason I give for it being possible is that my ancestor, James Gillespie Cowan (son of John [Alexander] Cowan and Rosannah Gillespie ... grandson of William Cowan and Jane Walker) married Mary Moor[e?] and her family is alledged to have come from the Augusta Co., VA area but I haven't been able to trace her family back to VA. --cowantex 12:10, 19 June 2014 (UTC)