User talk:Cos1776



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Southerland and McEvoy directory [9 November 2009]

Hello, I am a volunteer admin. I am sorry for the confusion with the title. There has been quite a community discussion on how to title directories. I was not aware of the community's decision. I have renamed the page accordingly. Directories were considered government records because they are place oriented. However, it was decided to treat them as books, because they are. Soooo, we list the publisher first, a period, then the title. That way with a directory such as yours, where it covers more than one local, the locals can be listed and the title isn't confusing.

) --sq 13:05, 9 November 2009 (EST)

Thomas Hall [2 November 2010]

After reviewing the available information on Thomas Hall, it appears very unlikely that he was born in Prince William County, Virginia. His father Edward Hall was clearly in Augusta County from his arrival/land patent in 1747 until his death in 1796. The information on him coming from Prince William was probably either "family tradition" or perhaps confused with another Thomas Hall.

There was another Thomas Hall in Chalkley's records, but this other Thomas appears to have been perhaps at least 10-15 years older and was not living close to the Beverley Manor area (perhaps around the outer Shenandoah area), where Edward Hall was located.

Hope this helps. You might want to remove the "Prince William" alt birthdate, since it doesn't seem to fit in this instance.

Best regards,

Jim, Volunteer Administrator on WeRelate--Delijim 09:41, 28 October 2010 (EDT)

I am so glad that you brought this up. I am hoping that we can open a collaborative discussion to determine whether or not the Thomas Hall cited in the referenced books (son of Edward and Eleanor (Stuart) Hall, b. 1754) is the same Thomas Hall (DAR patriot A049540) cited in so many DAR applications of the early 20th century, such as the one you had listed on the page. The DAR has accepted/approved these applications (see website) and tied Thomas to the family of Edward and Eleanor as well, but I am bothered by inconsistencies in the facts myself. I have been adding all relevant sources to the pages, hoping to drill down to the primary ones.
For ex. you wrote "The information on him coming from Prince William was probably either "family tradition" or perhaps confused with another Thomas Hall."
  • Thomas Hall's 31 Aug 1754 birthdate comes from the various published genealogies. Do you know if a primary source exists? I have often wondered where the original authors got those dates.
  • Thomas A049540 Hall's birthdate/place (1760/Prince Wm Co.) comes from his signed and sworn affadavit in his 1833 pension application stating that he was born in Prince William County, VA and was unable to determine his birthdate, but guessed it was around 1760. This same pension application lists no children, but a later widow's application was made by wife, Nancy (no maiden name given). I am happy to post images from the file.
There are also questions about Thomas' marriage(s). Did he really have two wives? The oft-cited wife Nancy - was she Nancy Ann Bartlett, widow of Christopher Chinn and dau. of Thomas Bartlett? Many believe most of the records of his young life were lost in courthouse fires. I am posting sources for marriage facts as well and hope that the genealogical community will respond. Please do add whatever you have.
I hope that we can work together with others to sort this out by citing robust sources (and I really hope that we don't end up disproving so many DAR apps). I know that many researchers have worked on this in the past with no definite resolution. Hopefully pooling resources will enable us to solve some of the mysteries surrounding these folks.

-- Best Wishes, --Cos1776 11:10, 28 October 2010 (EDT) p.s. - I am curious why you are not using the wiki's sourcing format for your sources?

OK, here goes. I firmly believe that we're confusing two different Thomas Hall's. One, son of Edward Hall of Beverley Manor was born in Augusta County in 1764. The other, was born in 1759 in Prince William County, Virginia. I have a candidate for the Thomas Hall in Prince William County, as follows: Thomas Hall.

The interesting thing about this Thomas Hall (not much info on him) is the information contained on his brother, Edward Hall's Revolutionary Pension Application:

Edward Hall.

The information contained seems to mirror much of the information contained in Thomas Hall of Prince William County's application.

So, I think we need to "go back to the drawing board" and determine which records can be positively linked to Thomas Hall of Augusta County and which ones we can positively link to Thomas Hall of Prince William County and later Montgomery County, Kentucky. At some point in time some researcher (perhaps well-intentioned) must have "thought" that the Thomas Hall from Augusta was the one that migrated to Montgomery County, Kentucky, but got it wrong....

The following interesting note from a Rootsweb post regarding the Edward Hall, listed above:

The Edward Hall extended family are not known to be slave holders. Mane Hall has no slaves. All the other early Hall families have slaves. Two of Edward Hall's brothers did live in Montgomery County, KY (Thomas Hall and Micajah Hall). The balance of the early Hall family in Montgomery County, KY were slave holders.

Also, if you read this biography for Edward Hall, it looks like it is referencing Thomas Hall's (b. Prince William County) pension application:

The following excerpt:

Thomas Hall, brother of Edward mentions a battle on the “upper Blue Licks where we had a pretty severe engagement with the Indians from there we were marched back to Boonesborough, where we were stationed principally until the termination of the War. Engaged during the whole period in occasional and frequent scouting along the frontier settlements. In fact, our whole service partook as good deal of the nature of a frontier guard.” Thomas Hall was in the Battle of Blue Licks. Edward Hall makes no mention of a Battle at Blue Licks, he may have been with Benjamin Logan’s army that arrived after the battle. Brother William Hall was with Benjamin Logan’s troops.

From Thomas Hall's pension application:

After being stationed at that point for for some months, we were marched to Boonesborough; and from there to the upper Blue Licks, under command of Maj. Hoy (?) where we had a pretty severe engagement with the Indians from there we were marched back to Boonesbough, where we were stationed principally until the thermination of the War, engaged, however, during the whole period in occassional and frequent scouting along the frontier settlements.

I think if you compare the two paragraphs above, it is clear that Edward Hall, Thomas Hall's brother is the Thomas Hall from Prince William County (same county as Edward, just born two years apart), with no apparent connection to the Augusta County Hall's.

Anyway, that's my opinion at first glance, so if you have records to prove otherwise, please share them with me. I thing it's probably best that we just start e-mailing our thoughts, rather than filling up your talk page. My e-mail is:

Look forward to resolving this little puzzle.... :)


I will respond briefly here and continue via email later. It is reassuring to see someone else arrive at the same conclusion. I am familiar with the above citations that you provided, with the exception of the "slave holder" posting, and although there are many instances where the vitals for these two men have been intertwined in past work, including many publications and most notably the DAR apps - I too believe them to be two separate individuals. I will proceed on that theory and make adjustments.--Cos1776 11:43, 2 November 2010 (EDT)

Agreed, it appears that the DAR application referenced may be the one that has caused all the confusion.... I will also add an advisory on both person pages of the confusion. I've moved some of the other Thomas Hall's information over, you can move the rest, including the source information at your convenience.

Best regards,


Conklni family of Wayne CO, IN [20 June 2011]

Hi, I greatly appreciate the articles that you are adding on my Conklin family of Cambridge City. Thank you.--Sheri 21:35, 19 June 2011 (EDT)

My pleasure. I think that the little glimpses into their lives adds some insight into their character and personality. By the way, I believe that our ancestors were acquaintances, if not friends. I descend from the Pitman and Petro families of Cambridge City. Do you happen to have any old photos of these folks and/or the town during the late 1800s-early 1900s? Those would be great additions to their pages and I am always on the lookout for photos of folks from CC during that time.

Best Wishes!--Cos1776 10:05, 20 June 2011 (EDT)

I have no pictures. I am descended from Benjamin, Felix and Aaron Conklin's older brother Pierson who stayed in Butler County OH. Many members of that family lived in CC at least for awhile. If you live in CC you will find it interesting to know that Coyeta Miller (Mrs. Ernest Miller) is a great-granddaughter of Felix Conklin and was not aware that Benjamin and Felix were brothers. By the way, if the Conklin-Montgomery house there is ever open for a tour, let me know as I would love to see it. Sheri

Actually CC is having a 175th Anniversary celebration starting next weekend and lasting through the 3rd of July. I would bet that the house will be open for tours, if they do that sort of thing. There is contact info on the chamber of commerce website for the town. I do not live in CC. Thank you for all of your good work on werelate - hopefully we are creating something that will be of interest to the future generations.--Cos1776 10:58, 20 June 2011 (EDT)

Place titles [16 September 2011]

I noticed that you renamed the page for Clay Township. I renamed it back to Place:Clay, Wayne, Indiana, United States, without the word (township) in the title. We add township in parentheses to differentiate it from another town/city with the same name, which I was unable to find. Let me know if you have any questions, --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:10, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

Is this something new? I thought that all townships were supposed to have "(township)" in the title to define them as such and standardize everything the same way. It seems to go against all the rules of standardization to only apply the rules to some cases and not others. What is the harm in adding "(township)" to the title if it is one?--Cos1776 11:25, 16 September 2011 (EDT)
It's not new. The Place pages help page describes using (township) in the title only for "US township in a county with a town of the same name". The standard is to title places in the U.S. in the form Place, County, State, United States (whether the place is a City/township/village/borough) and only use (township) as a means of disambiguation. The word Township is added as a type when editing the place, and this information is displayed when a person searches for a place. --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:34, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

john lewis hayes/ lewis lester hayes [28 December 2011]

Are you related to this person? I have been searching for years for info about him. Other than the name, i really dont see any resemblance to the person I've been looking for. He was my grandma's dad, and he left when she was really small, never to be seen or heard from again, she's always wondered what happened tohim. all we know is that he stayed in trouble quite a bit, and often changed his name. Do you think for some reason this may be the same person?--Meme2002 14:11, 28 December 2011 (EST)

I have seen some of your posts on different boards regarding John/Lester/Lewis Hayes and actually that is what got me to thinking about what I knew of the individual in this family. I do know that there was a son, who went by Lester Louis Hayes, and there was a baby in the 1880 census who was listed as "John" and that these two could be the same individual. BUT I really don't know if this is the same guy that you have been looking for. Do you have any other info on him? When was your grandmother born? This Hayes was born in Olin, NC and moved to NJ with his brothers sometime around 1900. He is found living in Monmouth co., NJ in 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930. He married Hattie G A (Unknown) sometime around 1920. I haven't entered all of this yet onto his page, but I'm working on it. hth--Cos1776 18:46, 28 December 2011 (EST)

Weaver's [23 August 2012]

I am the gg-grand son of Cornelius Weaver. My g-grandfather was John Henry Weaver.

I have his a wall with Christian (Christoper) Weaver trying to find his father. What family are you researching?

Tim Weaver--TimWeaver58 15:34, 22 August 2012 (EDT)

Welcome! Thanks for the message. My connection to your Weavers comes through my interest in the Scheidler/Shidler/Shideler, etc. family and families of that Midwest region in that time period in general. I have enjoyed adding info to these pages as I come across it and I look forward to seeing whatever information and sources that you can bring to them as well. It does take a little bit to get used to the format, so please let me know if I can be of any assistance. I'm not an expert, but I've been at it for a while. Unfortunately, I do not have any additional info on Christopher/Christian Weaver. Do you have a scan or transcript of the marriage record to which you have referred or more information about its location for the citation? That would be a nice addition to help in sourcing his first name. --Cos1776 16:24, 22 August 2012 (EDT)

Since my father past away in May. I have been working the Weaver line. A friend of mine showed me the marriage record for Christian Weaver and Sarah Shideler in Montgomery County. I don't have that copy right now, but I will work on the references. I've seen a copy of the actual written record and other references in several different records since we found that it a couple of weeks ago.

I have been looking for Christopher for many years, because of the information in the Henry County book, and was not able to tie the two together, until 2 weeks ago.

I only have the lines from Christian to me. I don't have all the inforamtion on the siblings, but I have all the names.

Christian Weaver and Sarah Shideler

son Cornelius Weaver and Louisa Keller (Maybe,the 2nd wife) - son John Henry Weaver and Fannie Batchfield (Five Brothers) -- son William Marcus Weaver and Estella Lindamood (1-Brother, 1-Sister, 6 other wives) --- son John R. Weaver and V. Helen Enochs (1-Brother)

son Timothy L. Weaver and Cynthia L. Von Moll

I have 2 sons and a grandson.--TimWeaver58 10:00, 23 August 2012 (EDT)

Virginia families [13 November 2012]

I see you're "filling in the blanks" of many of the Virginia families that I've been working over the past couple of years. Keep up the good work! Up until recently, I've sort of felt like the "Lone Ranger", when adding many of the early prominent Virginia families....

Best regards,

Jim:)--Delijim 12:21, 20 October 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for noticing. It is always rewarding to me when the branches start to connect. And yes, I agree, it seems quiet here lately. Wonder why? --Cos1776 15:43, 20 October 2012 (EDT)

I've been noticing this too, and I gave up on werelate a long time go--and I'm the one who loaded in the intial Ball gedcom though I shouldn't have at that time. Long story. All that being said, probably the cited and researched site for the Northern Neck families--included Ball--is something a group of created at It's a private tree called Northern Neck of Virginia Families. You are welcome to take a look at it over there. If you find it useful, contact the project administrator, Jim Bartlett whose contact information will appear on the home page. Good luck. Craig Kilby--Persisto 15:50, 13 November 2012 (EST)

Kelley in Maryland [9 December 2012]

  My name is Bernard Kelley, decendent of Daniel Kelley born in Maryland 1774. I am trying to locate other Kelley lines who may be related. I had my Y-DNA done with some interesting results and want to find the other members of our Kelley line. If you have a male Kelley decendent living I urge them to have a Y-DNA test with Family tree DNA. If we are related I will be notified. Thanks for your time.--Bernard 13:28, 9 December 2012 (EST)

Frank Lackey, Indiana [22 March 2013]

I am not a blood relative of Frank Lackey, but my mother, Marie Dewitt, was adopted by Richard King Lackey in Richmond, Indiana in 1935. Richard's father was Frank Lackey and his mother was Josephine King. Richard moved his family to Miami Beach, FL in 1935. I was born there in 1948, and always knew Richard Lackey as my grandfather. Please respond to 12:33, 22 March 2013 (EDT)

Hello - I tried to respond to your email, but it did not work. Thank you for writing. I am not related to the Lackey family but I am interested in the history of the families who lived in or near Cambridge City, Indiana in the 1800s. It has turned into a large, but very enjoyable project. Several of the Lackeys figured prominently there at that time, so that is how I ended up creating some pages for them. It is by no means a complete genealogy - just snippets here and there. If you are interested in adding any information and/or creating any additional pages for more members of your family, I am happy to help. Old photos would be especially nice to add. Best Wishes! --Cos1776 13:37, 22 March 2013 (EDT)

regimental category indexes... [6 September 2013]

I recently went through those, trying to systematically add WP pages where I could. Relatively speaking, I pretty much completely overhauled the way category sort order was done - from a unit,type to type,unit. I was warned that some effort had gone into all that - but I barged ahead anyway because I just didn't see how what I was looking at made that much sense.

Anyway - if I managed to mess anything up - please tell me what, and how, and I'll try to help fix it.


--jrm03063 15:46, 6 September 2013 (EDT)

I am not one of the originators of that project, so I too hope that I am not "messing anything up". :) I didn't realize that someone had already overhauled the sort once, so I hope that I haven't stepped on your toes. I took a look at what you had done before and IMHO your change was logical. I just extrapolated it out one more step - i.e. changing to a three digit number to force the correct sort order on the state page since the regiments can number into the hundreds. I try to add soldiers to the categories whenever I come across them, but I have been wondering for a while now if this project is still active? Do you know? --Cos1776 16:38, 6 September 2013 (EDT)
Ok - sounds reasonable to me at least. As to the activity of "the project" - I look at this all a bit differently. I see this as a reasonable WeRelate "shadow" of information organization on Wikipedia. Adding people to their respective military units then has the effect of associating them with that supporting information.
My main departure from what other folks do - is that I don't add category membership in the page body - but instead - add it next to the associated fact (see the association of Person:Joshua Chamberlain (1) with the 20th Maine, as a fact of his commission/enlistment date). So I don't care whether there are folks working on "this particular" category tree at this particular moment - only that its an organization that's reasonably consistent with WP and that it would be easy to add any given person as a member of an appropriate category, to bring together the specific person and the general information context.
I've also got several other trees of categories that I work similarly, one of which - battles/campaigns/wars - you'll also see on the Chamberlain page - if you go to one of the military battle facts, and walk the categories up from the link in the description field. It's just another way to drop in Person life events into the general information context provided by WP. --jrm03063 17:14, 6 September 2013 (EDT)
I think that what you have done on Joshua's page looks fantastic. There is a lot of power in categorization that can really set this site apart if folks would take the time to enter the information correctly as you have. Hopefully if we keep plugging away at it, more folks will finally realize the potential. "Build it and they will come... right?" Best Wishes --Cos1776 17:39, 6 September 2013 (EDT)

Carwile [19 September 2013]

Thanks for the update on James Madison havn't proved out that far on that line yet you any relation?--Kissmenow 17:46, 19 September 2013 (EDT)

No, I'm not related. I bumped into JM Carwile's page while adding to pages around him, specifically the family of his wife's sister, Person:Pamelia Brown (1). When I saw JM and Jane in Find A Grave, I just went ahead and added that to their pages. Best Wishes! --Cos1776 18:00, 19 September 2013 (EDT)

I stumbled into the same DAR duplication that you did! [6 November 2013]

I'm also remiss in not finding as many of the items as you did - and I even opened a second topic further down on the watercooler below yours! Wanted you to know - and seeking your input. Thanks! --jrm03063 15:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Appreciate the notice. The merging is one of those things that is sitting on my To Do list, but I have gotten sidetracked. :) I was also trying to give it some time to allow any input to come in, but I think it has been long enough. I'm of the opinion to merge them all and favor the title "Source:DAR Genealogical Research System" (i.e. eliminating "The").
I also want to say that I like your idea of a DAR template and favor the display of the ancestor number to allow for searching. I personally use that type of search all the time as I find it easier to zero in on a specific individual. --Cos1776 15:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
I tend to always get rid of a noisy "The" - but wonder if it's exactly kosher to abbreviate Daughters of the American Revolution as DAR in a source title. I was presuming no - but I don't have any real basis for that opinion. Shall we ask the source police? --jrm03063 16:01, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
hmm...I hear you. Since the source (at least how I have been using it) is a compiled registry/website/database as opposed to a specific DAR book or pamphlet or chapter publication, I suppose one could make the argument that this is similar to Find A Grave or Wikipedia which do not have a source titles like "Tipton, Jim. Find A Grave" or "Wikimedia Foundation. Wikipedia." Does that seem logical to you? --Cos1776 17:00, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. So neither "DAR Genealogical Research System" nor "Daughters of the American Revolution. Genealogical Research System" - rather "Daughters of the American Revolution Genealogical Research System"? Phew! I can go with that - but I still think we should get an opinion from someone who's done a lot of work on source naming. I'm ok with going back over pages that I've done - but I'ld like to try to do it once!  :) --jrm03063 19:58, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh no, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I am for the shorter name - DAR Genealogical Research System - not the longer versions. I don't think DAR needs to be spelled out, especially since that is the official name of the database as specified by the organization itself. I've done quite a bit of WeRelate source naming here myself, but of course I am fine with running it by other folks.
One of my concerns before beginning the redirects was to make sure that all of the good content from the duplicate pages was getting pulled onto the final version. --Cos1776 20:29, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
I'll be careful on the consolidation. I've seen a couple pages that used references into tabs other than the "Ancestor" tab. So I was wondering if "dargrs" is really the right name for a template meant only for accessing pages under the ancestors tab. Maybe it should be "darancestor"? Others might be "darmember" and so on.... On the conventions - I don't have a strong preference - I just want to avoid running over the hundred or so related pages more than once - so I'ld appreciate it if we could get someone else to buy in to the name change and name(s) for templates before I charge off with the changes. --jrm03063 20:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Your plan sounds good. Out of curiosity - what do you mean by "running over the hundred or so related pages"? Were you referring to adding your template to person pages or to something else? --Cos1776 20:49, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
I'll be adding/fixing the template (name of which is TBD), but I'll also correct the form of the source name, rather than relying on a redirect. --jrm03063 20:57, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
I suppose you could, but you really do not have to go back and correct the source names on the old pages. That is one of the benefits of using the redirect function. I can't think of why it wouldn't work. Please let me know if there is anything I can help out with. I'm happy to do it. --Cos1776 22:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
I know - and that's highly useful as an intermediate step and/or when one doesn't have time to do anything else. In my case however, I'm going to be visiting all those pages to put in the right DAR page reference template anyway, so it would be silly to not fix the name of the source while I'm in there. --jrm03063 23:11, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Navigational issues [15 December 2013]

It would be better to this conversation here instead of on my talk page. I would like to hear more about these navigational issues you say you are having. If by that, you meant you wanted to be able to go through the lists of Govs of NJ or any state easier, that problem will be solved soon. There have been times in the past I started to create a new Governor page only to find out it existed under an alternate name - so I think I have some idea what you mean.--Daniel Maxwell 22:15, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't mind holding it here. I do not believe that my way of doing prefixes and/or suffixes is against the naming conventions - which as I understand them, have to do with the page title. To make sure that policy hadn't changed unbeknownst to me, I reread the policy here. If you take a look again, you'll see that there is nothing to indicate that it is wrong to use "1st NJ Gov" instead of just "Gov" in a prefix box. Adding clarity to the prefix or suffix box does not change the page title which in all of these cases is not in violation.
As to navigation, I was not referring to moving quickly thru a list of governors, per se, but rather moving around in family groups and being able to quickly distinguish between individuals of similar name/timeframe in search results. As we all know, there can be many family members bearing the same name and sometimes even holding the same political office. I don't look at it as much different than using suffixes, such as "4th Lord Livingston", another William Livingston btw. --Cos1776 22:57, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
By 'against the rules' I did not mean formally. Just against the style conventions of this site. I don't think I agree with the example you give because it is also not part of his 'title' if you want to call a governorship that, and that is what makes it different than a noble. No one called him William Livingston, 1st Governor New Jersey in any formal sense. And it looks weird, because it is not a normal practice on this site to have unusual prefixes to make navigation easier for one user. Daniel Maxwell 23:04, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Let me put it this way; if we were to accept 'numbering' Governors in the prefix, why not stop at Livingston? Maybe Chris Christie could be called '55th Gov. Nj' before his name. I'm happy to try and help you in any way to make navigation easier, but I don't think that prefix like that would work or be at all popular on this site. Is it a major problem? No, not really. I guess I'd want to solve your navigation problems before resorting to strange prefixes. Please don't take offense to this, I'm not picking on you with it. You have some good contributions and you are the kind of user we are trying to recruit for the site. Daniel Maxwell 23:28, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
LOL - Bless your heart. You shouldn't do and say insulting things if you don't want someone to take offense. Moving our discussion off of your talk page? Helping me with navigation? Some good contributions? Recruiting me? These are insulting and funny all at once! I'm not new to this site. I've been active here longer than you have, and I am just as much a part of the "we" to which you repeatedly refer as you are.
This is a wiki and my style is obviously different than yours, but it is not "weird" or "strange" as you state, and more importantly, it is not in violation of policy, and it does not harm the page. In my opinion it adds to it in a simple direct way, and I am sure that I am not the only one who would find it helpful, so it is not for the benefit of only one user. Furthermore, your premise that Governors are not referred to as "1st Governor of This" or "45th Governor of That" is incorrect as is your suggestion that only official titles are used in prefix/suffix boxes. Personally, I would have no problem entering "55th NJ Gov" in the prefix box of Christopher Christie's page, if he had one. --Cos1776 02:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Families Ayd and Krug in Baltimore [20 January 2014]

Dear Family Researcher, I would like to contact you with regard to the information published by you at we relate concerning the Family Ayd in Baltimore. I have noticed that you have published there many generations of the Ayd Family, who migrated from Baden to Germany and I assume they belong to your ancestors. While Ayds do not belong to my ancestors I am particularly interested in the marriage between John Adam Ayd to Josephine Krug around 1848 in Baltimore. She belongs to a family of my ancestors, who migrated to Baltimore in 1844. I have researched this family extensively and I have found some interesting information. A brother of hers became Arch Abbott of the famous monastery of Monte Cassino from 1897-1909. He came from a catholic family in Baltimore, who by marriage was connected to the Ayd Family and the Kuper Family in Baltimore. However, several open questions remain. The first Name Josephine Krug published by you for the marriage Krug/Ayd is different from the first names Wilhelmine or Philomena, which I have found in other sources. However, the third child's first name is Boniface and without doubt the mother's brother was the god father. I am also puzzled that Josephine or Wilhelmine was only about 16 years of age when she married John Adam Ayd judging from her age stated in the census data of 1860. It would be most helpful to have the marriage entry of John Adam Ayd and Josephine Krug from around 1848. Concerning these and other questions I would like to ask your support for an exchange of our data, so that we are able to better document this marriage between the Ayd and Krug families. In order to enable the sending of annexes I suggest that we continue the exchange by E-Mail (my address is I would be happy and grateful for your positive response. Very best regards from Germany and also best wishes for the new year Carl E. Krug--Carl Krug 20:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Followup - I have sent 2 emails to the address provided and will now await your response. Regards, --Cos1776 20:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

hello [22 January 2014]

HELLO!--Eraldirson 17:19, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

 ?Hello? New User Eraldirson - Why did you erase all of the text from MySource:Cos1776/Mester, Siegmund Wilhelm 1856 Birth Certificate? Was it a mistake? --Cos1776 20:29, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes I am sorry it seems that I miss typed the username, my apologies.--Eraldirson 14:42, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

ok - I'll fix it. Do you have an interest in the Mester family? --Cos1776 18:00, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Death date of Daniel Streing [19 February 2014]


Source #2 (Strangs of Westchester) says "Daniel wrote his will on 16 December 1706, and it was proved 11 February 1707 (N.Y.Co. Wills 7:288/374)." While I haven't checked the original, this would indicate that Daniel died between 16 Dec 1706 and 11 Feb 1707. What source do you have that says that he died before 16 Dec 1706 ie before writing his will?

Arthur Owen--Arthur Owen 01:59, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

You are quite right. I was distracted while editing yesterday. I apologize for the mistake and will fix it. Regards, --Cos1776 20:08, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Naming Conventions for married women [9 March 2014]

Hi, Cos,

I've changed the "Preferred Name" of a few of your pages for women, where you have listed their married names as the preferred names. Instead of using their married names as their preferred names, I've change them to their baptismal or maiden names, while leaving the other information you entered intact. This is general practice for any genealogical listing of data, and is also consistent with WeRelate policy. (See Titles for Person pages, second item.) In addition to general practice, it's also important if you want searches for persons to work property. Hope this clarifies things a bit for you. --GayelKnott 21:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Gayle - Yes, I see that... You changed quite a few of the pages that I am actively working on before getting in touch. Let me see if I can explain what I am doing and why it violates neither current WR policy nor standard accepted genealogical practice. The good news is that as a dynamic wiki we have more tools and flexibility than genealogists of the past when it comes to presenting and working within our collective research. As long as we are working to produce high quality and meaningful research that incorporates the best practices, we should not feel constrained here in how we present the results. This is a new medium and we are fortunate to be the ones creating the future of genealogy.
Regarding the WR policy to which you refer, please allow me to point out that the policy pertains to the "Title of the Person page". This is not the same thing as the "Preferred Name" fields that you fill out when editing the page. In this case, each of the pages that you edited was titled correctly (i.e. for women, firstname maidensurname ), so there was no policy violation there. But - I can understand how you might be getting these two things mixed up when it comes to the WR search engine, since results are displayed using whatever has been entered into the "Preferred Name" fields. But that is a good thing (more later).
Fortunately, our WR search engine is quite robust. (You indicated otherwise, perhaps you can explain?) Basically, if Data has been entered into any of the fields on the page, it can be searched. This is why it is so important to populate those fields. It is the scarcity of information that hampers a search engine, not the abundance of it. For women, I do always try to be very careful to populate the Name Fields for both Birth/Baptismal Names and Married Names, so these ladies were well covered. A WR search performed on any of these Names, especially in conjunction with a Place or Date, would have no problem in returning their pages.
This brings us to the "Preferred Name" Fields. As long as the important information is being entered into the Data Fields on the page, so that it can be accessed by both humans and the WR search engine, the format used in the "Preferred Name" fields is irrelevant. You can think of it as a "Display Name" for that person as defined by the last wiki editor. Of course, interested researchers can have a different opinion about what that preferred name should be. What is so powerful is that it presents us with a unique tool that many other genealogy mediums do not possess, namely the ability to provide dynamic descriptors to help us distinguish between individuals at a quick glance. We see these in evidence on men's pages all the time (i.e. "Dr." or "Gov." or "of Hall's Creek" etc.).
Given the technology that we are using, there does not seem to be a good reason why the same types of descriptors could not be used for women's pages as well, as long as maiden names were included in their data set, both to comply with good genealogical practice and to give the search engine data to mine. After all, most married women of yore were known and recorded by their married names for many more years of their lives than they were known or recorded by their maiden names.
So - does this format look a bit different than what you might be used to? Sure, a wiki is a relatively new format in itself. Is this format against WR policy or good genealogical practice? No. Does it compromise the data or harm the page? No. Is it helpful to users? Yes, I believe so. So I decided to try it out with a Smith family that did not previously exist on WR and was in the process of creating/sourcing/linking and testing these pages when you came along. --Cos1776 03:32, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
WR's Help:Style guide provides additional detail into the policy that Gayel is referencing. It is general practice on WR to include a woman's maiden name in the preferred surname field (and blank or Unknown if the surname was not known). --Jennifer (JBS66) 11:20, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Jennifer. Cos, yes, you are right, the WR Search engine is quite sturdy. My apologies if the changes upset an experiment you were conducting. One of the things I really like about WR is the flexibility it provides to try different ways of presenting your information. There are still some conventions, though. I've had to grit my teeth and bite my tongue on a few.--GayelKnott 15:40, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Happy Monday! I read through the Help:Style guide again. It struck me, both from the heading of the page itself and the comments on the Talk page, that there was disagreement among the contributors at the time as to whether that was meant to be a "Guide" or a precursor to a set of rules that would eventually become policy. It does not appear to have been resolved before work ceased on the page in 2011. In any case, you can see that it also does not specify to use a woman's maiden name as her Preferred surname, just not to "use a prior married surname in place of a woman's maiden name" (emphasis mine). Once again, I believe the bulk of those data entry guides for Name fields arose out of a desire to prevent problems in the creation of Page Titles. Some of the them evolved into general practice, and some did not, but I do agree with both of you that most active WR users have incorporated the convention of using "maiden surname as Preferred surname" when it comes to pages for women. I usually adhere to it myself. Thank you for your patience while I conduct this little experiment. I will report back what I find. --Cos1776 19:30, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Changes to Smith Family (again) [10 March 2014]

Hi Gayle - I am getting tons of notifications this evening that you are editing the Smith pages again that we spoke of before. Looks like you are renaming pages, such as this one, where you changed the Page Title from "John Smith and Sarah Unknown" to "John Smith and Sarah Smith" but did not provide any evidence to support that Sarah's maiden name was Smith. Is the evidence forthcoming? Are you actively researching these pages now? --Cos1776 01:05, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Cos -- I've copied your query here because it is part of a previous discussion. I changed one page, not tons, merging it with a duplicate page that you apparently had created. This is one of the things I do as a volunteer on WeRelate. Then I simply clicked the automatic rename message at the top of the page. If you persist in not following the conventions regarding page names, I'm afraid this is likely to happen again -- one of the consequences of not following conventions. Several of your other pages also have the automatic rename message on them as well, and, given the changes in naming convention that you seem to be pursuing, it is also likely that more of your pages will end up on the Duplicates List.
Speaking of conventions, on a collaborative site, one of them is to respond to messages. It's been three months since I left a message on the talk page for Family:Unknown Smith and Hannah Unknown (2) regarding the existence of potential duplicates. If you don't want the pages merged, I suggest you mark them with the "Do Not Merge" template. Otherwise, the next time I go through the Duplicates List, which could be next week, I will merge them, as they are currently cluttering up the list.
By the way, my name is Gayel, not Gayle. --GayelKnott 01:31, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry for misspelling your name. No disrespect intended, just a mistake on my part. As to your message on Family:Unknown Smith and Hannah Unknown (2) - I do not specifically recall seeing it, but we were traveling right then before Christmas, so it may have gotten lost in the shuffle. My short answer is that I have no idea if it is a duplicate or not. IMHO, neither page contains enough info to determine that they might be the same family, so they should remain separate pages until someone comes along with some evidence to indicate otherwise. I thought that the "No Merge Template" was supposed to be used in cases where you have evidence to support it - but maybe you are using it differently (?)

As to the Smiths - I did not say that you had changed "tons of pages" - just that I was receiving "tons of notifications" which as you know happens as a result of the propagation of the changes on one page to surrounding pages. Considering that we had just had a dialogue about the pages in question, I could not understand what was going on. I figured that you must have come across a great source for Sarah's maiden name, but when I investigated, that wasn't the case. Nonetheless, I do think that it would be good for us both to understand how this came about.

  • You say that you merged Family:John Smith and Sarah Unknown (5) with a duplicate page that I had previously created. When I look at the history page, I am not able to see that. I can only see that the page was renamed. That seems strange to me because usually the history shows when a page was merged. Do you have any insight into this?
  • You said "Several of your other pages also have the automatic rename message" and it sounds like you think this is a problem. I'm not sure why that would be so. Can you explain and provide me with an example of a page, so I can take a look? Do you know what triggers that message to appear? I thought it was just another reminder to Title the pages correctly, especially when Unknown surnames can be replaced. I haven't seen it before on a page other than an Unknown - have you?
  • Can you tell me how you are generating your Duplicate List? I would like to see how the pages appear there, so that I can better understand why this is causing you problems.

Best Wishes (and I do mean that)! --Cos1776 04:28, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Cos, I'll admit that learning all the ins and outs of WeRelate can take some time (and I'm not sure the process is ever complete), so in order to provide some explanation of what is happening, I'm going to take your questions out of order.
First, I don't generatate a Duplicate list -- I can't think of a more boring or pointless waste of my time. However, the computer for WeRelate does generate a Duplicates list. As you know, we are not supposed to be creating duplicate pages for people or individuals, yet it happens. You can see the list here. When the administration for WeRelate switched over to predominantly Volunteer Administration, people were encouraged to help out by volunteering (you can see the statement on the Home Page.) I, along with several others, volunteered for the Duplicate Patrol pages. (You can see the volunteer opportunities here, the Duplicate pages patrol here). In addition to those people listed as volunteers, there are several other people who have also made heavy time commitments to try to clean up a backlog of the Duplicate pages, and the list of Duplicate pages is now much shorter than it used to be. Of course, if you don't want any of your pages to appear on the Duplicates List, you can always check "Show Duplicates" under the "MyRelate" menu at the top of the page when you are signed in and clean them up yourself.
When a Family Page appears on a Duplicates List, all you have to do is click on that name, and the computer will automatically take you to a Compare Pages page. (You can also compare pages of individuals, or of other Family pages by using the Admin Menu at the top of almost any page.) The options for Compare Pages are Merge, or Not a Match. When you click on Not a Match, the No Merge Template is automatically placed on one of the pages, and the computer then automatically removes the two pages from the Duplicates List. The No Merge Template does not prevent the pages from being merged, but it does remove the pages from the Duplicates List and stand as a warning to other users that there may be reasons for not merging the two pages. Thus, if you are not sure, it's better to put the No Merge Template on one of the pages, first to stand as a warning to other users -- who hopefully will contact you before merging the pages; and second, to remove the pages from the Duplicate Lists, including yours. I'm not sure why you thought the No Merge Template should only be used in cases of documented differences, as there are no such instructions on the Template page, nor on it's associated Talk page. Perhaps you were thinking of the Speculative Templates??? (Not that people do necessarily add explanations when they use the templates.)
When comparing pages, sometimes it's not clear whether the pages are actually duplicates or not, which is why I try to refer the question back to one of the people who created the pages. Most active users are fairly responsive in answering. When it's not clear to them, then the convention is to put a No Merge template on one of the pages, usually the one with the explanation on the talk page as to why -- i.e., that there is not enough information to decide. If, at a later date, more information becomes available, the template can always be removed. In the meantime, there is considerably less clutter in the system.
As for losing messages, I agree that it is easy to do when you are travelling if you only check your Watchlist for changes, which seems to be set for changes within the last three days by default. However, if you check Dashboard, under the MyRelate menu, it will show the number of unchecked changes on your Watchlist, no matter how far back. If you have been travelling for an extensive period of time, you may have to go back quite a few pages in order to fine them all.
As for the "This page can be renamed" message, it will appear on any page where the page Title and the name(s) of the person(s) on the page are different. Go to any of the pages where you have chosen to not follow the conventions in filling in an individual's name, and you will see the message. It is a message that is automatically generated by the computer, and it does indicate that yes, there is a problem with the page. Often, the first response of someone seeing that message is to simply click the message and let the computer automatically rename the page in accordance with the stated naming conventions. As long as you insist on idiosyncratic names, you should probably expect this to happen. It was, as you say, "just a mistake", as I hadn't checked to see who had created the page before clicking the message, nor do I think I should necessarily be expected to. Working with a large number of pages, created by a large number of people, I can't always carry around a list of the idiosyncrasies of every individual who wants to do things differently. Obviously, I didn't bother with other of your pages, although they do carry the notice that the page needs to be renamed.
As an aside, you might want to keep in mind that, for now, as long as no one else is researching that particular line, the biggest problem with your idiosyncratic naming is that you are simply creating a bit of clutter in the system, and courting the kinds of automatic changes that you have been getting. However, if anyone else does start researching those people, they will be in the right in wanting to change the names of the individuals on the pages, which could create a lot of work for you.
As for the merging of duplicate pages, it would appear that among the many pages I worked on last night, what I did was add a NoMerge Template to Family talk:John Smith and Sarah Unknown (5), rather than merge it. You can see the template on the Talk Page. That there is a message on the Talk Page is noted under the page Title, just under the message that the page can be renamed (because the page title and the information on the page are different).
Hope this helps explain why there are problems with your pages. As I said before, WeRelate probably allows for more creativity and individuality than any other site that I'm aware of. The few conventions that are in place help to reduce the kinds of chaos that also occurs on so many of them. --GayelKnott 17:13, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Marking potential living people for Speedy Delete [28 February 2014]

When you add the Speedy Delete template to a page where the person may be living, please include the date that you added the template. This makes it easier for admins to ensure each page has been through the 2 week warning. An example of the template we use can be found here. Thank you, --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:28, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry that I used the wrong template. Was following the instructions to use ({{Speedy Delete|Living}}) as per Help:FAQ. Do you want to update that page or should I? --Cos1776 17:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
That's ok! It's the same template, it's just that an additional parameter was added. I can update the help page to reflect this. --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
May I respectfully offer that a waiting period isn't appropriate if the person who contributed the page hasn't been active in a year or more? There are just so many of them - and they're already empty. Since most are associated with the bad old GEDCOM upload days - you could even make the activity limit four or five years. But visiting them all twice? Ick... --jrm03063 19:21, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
I know that it is extra work, but this is following the policy outlined on WeRelate:Speedy delete. For those pages without any dates and where the name field shows Living - those are deleted by admins on sight. Honestly, I believe these should be deleted via bot - and it's a request that I've expressed a few times... --Jennifer (JBS66) 19:30, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

wiliam h pollock [17 May 2014]

dear cos1776

Hiits a great thing that you are doing. whp I guess would be my gg uncle. my name is joan pollock gass. i have been to st lukes cemetary three times the first two w/no success. the third was a success. i found him . i understand that st anns church burials were in the same graveyard but were just connected and st lukes took over. his stone is right in front of the Blossom burials that has a wrought iron fence around it. there is a big tree right there in front of and before the wrought iron fence. it distinctly a stone that lists w.h.p. and date and a saying "Home at Last". maybe he was on the border and was actually in st annes, but it is the same burial yard (st annes and st lukes) do you think you can get a pcture of it, I would be forever so grateful. the caroline pollock was his wife.

thank you again for your great work. if I still lived in new york i would be able to do this my self, i live in florida now and cant go to new y york.--Pearlharbor777 14:16, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello and thank you for writing. Please see Person talk:William Pollock (19) for my response.--Cos1776 14:41, 17 May 2014 (UTC)