Person talk:Jonathan Powers (3)

clearly wrong [25 August 2014]

I removed some data:

Death 28 Nov 1762

Marriage 28 Nov 1764 to Susanna Willoughby

for which the following source was cited

Ancestral File (TM) ver 4.10 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Copyright 1987

I did find an AFN that said this, but it is clearly wrong, and should have been recognized as such when copied, as it is hard to get married 2 years after you die. This is why AFN's are not desirable as sources. Not only is the data often wrong, but you can't tell why if it was some form of typo or just bad research. Possibly (see below) 1762 was the death date of a Jonathan Power's first wife (not this Jonathan though), but was accidentally attached to Jonathan? We can only guess.

Neither of these pieces of data appear to go with the birth date and parents given here, hence they were removed.

According to various sources, it appears Susannah Willoughby m. Jonathan Powers, the son of Isaac, as his second wife. He was living in Dunstable. Some source suggest he was one of the oldest men to fight in the Revolution, possibly 70 when he enlisted, but it appears his first wife was Elizabeth Kidder, he moved to Dunstable, married a second wife Susanna in 1764, and had more children. His son, Jonathan, married by 1757 in Dunstable a Bridget, and his son Jonathan m. Rebecca Woods.

Meanwhile the death date in 1762 is not found in the records so who it applies to, or what was intended, is a mystery. The father of this Jonathan apparently died by 1766 when his wife Hannah was made administrator, but he was alive in 1764 when he executed a deed. Meanwhile, this Jonathan, the son, married in Lancaster in 1767 Love Pearson, and fought in the Revolution, so clearly did not die in 1762.

There are is not much coverage of these families. Some of this comes from Source:Amidon, Lee Earll. Powers Family : A Record of Walter Power of Concord, Massachusetts and Related Families, plus vital records of the towns mentioned, etc. --Jrich 15:06, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

According to the marriages you say Jonathan powers b. 20 Feb 1703/4 son of Isaac and Mary;-Vital Records of Cambridge Image pg 568: He would have been 81 when his last child was born. I found from "History of Hollis," by Samuel Worcester an enlistment for one "Jonathan Powers '75 Cam.B.H. 8m." Enlisted April 19, 1775, for Cambridge at the Battle of Bunker Hill-eight months. Out Dec '75. If this is the same Jonathan he would have been 72 years of age at enlistment. Records also state he lied about his age. He said he was 60 but closer to 70's.

Bridget b.25 Mar 1757 Dunstable Vital Records: to Jonathan Jr. and Bridget. When looking vital records, Jonathan, b.18 July 1726; d. 16 Oct 1777 is usually stated as Jonathan Jr., son of Jonathan powers and Eliz. Kidder.

Under the history of Nashua pg 359 I found Jonathan powers L.CoD:b Nashua age 44: res; Greenfield: enl; Oct 22 1761, must Dec 20, 1761 as priv; discharded: disabled. Sept 12 1762 Carrollton, La. Greenfield is 27 miles from Nashua, NH.--Pat rayburn 19:01, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

You did not read my remarks very well. I never said Jonathan Powers born 1703/4 married Susannah, and in fact ridiculed the sources that did. I said his son, b. in Chelmsford in 1726 is the one, after his first wife Bridget died. When looking at vital records, there is no death record for 16 Oct 1777 in Dunstable. You are confusing or mis-communicating where your data comes from. --Jrich 19:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm very confused about your reply. Third Sentence: According to various sources: What sources?, it appears Susanna Willoughby m. Jonathan Powers son of Isaac. This Jonathan powers was b. 20 Feb 1703/4 in Cambridge. Married Eliz. Kidder b. 12 July 1704. They were married 25 Dec 1725 in Chelmford,Mass. I'm sorry but in all the research I have not found a statement "Susanna Willoughby m. Jonathan Powers son of Isaac." Please refer me to this statement.

You are right, I mispoke. The original argument on Person Talk:Jonathan Powers (1) which I was trying to summarize here cites sources (the ones by Charles Spaulding and Ezra Stearns) say the other Jonathan Powers born 1704, s/o Daniel, which makes even less sense because the son of Daniel was married to Hannah. But those authors clearly applied the records in Dunstable to the wrong Jonathan Powers, apparently being unfamiliar with the records found in Lancaster. Sorry, I mixed the two up in my reply, but they both result in the same ridiculous age difference. But the fact is, I never argued either one of these older Jonathan's married Susannah, and ridiculed those sources for suggesting it.

There is a 40yr age difference between This Jonathan and Susanna. Please refer me to Jonathan Powers Jr. b. 18 July 1726 to his marriage to Susanna.

You know it, you posted it on the page of the wrong Jonathan. From the History of Hollis. He is called "Jonathan Powers of Dunstable".

I want to make sure my family line is correct. The genealogy line from the Willoughby family states Jonathan that Susanna married was born 22 July 1744. There are too many mis-prints so I am going by Vital Records. I agree, the death date for Jonathan b. 1744 d. 1762. m. 1764 ancestral file 1987 is wrong. It does not make the entire record wrong. I have found mistakes in almost every line I've researced. There was a French Indian War and a Revolution that has to be taken into consideration.--Pat rayburn 20:34, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

You have not been going by vital records so far. And such a philosophy would exactly mean throwing away all AFNs, whether they contain ridiculous errors, or are actually right; books whether they show a 83 year old man fathering a child, or a more reasonable younger person; manuscripts whether written by a stranger, or a mother; Internet family trees, whether they show no sources, or faithfully cite the book from which they are copying. None of those are vital records. If you do use only vital records, you will find Jonathan Powers b. 1726 m. Susannah Willoughy is consistent with all the vital records. But having a vital record is only one piece. They must be put together by thoughtful analysis, particularly in those cases where some of the vital records are missing, like the death of the various Jonathan Powers. For example, the death of 16 Oct 1777 is a vital record, but it comes from a different town (Greenwich) and when you look up the actual wording of the death record it says that Jonathan is the son of Aaron. So it may be a vital record, but the analysis shows it is immaterial to both the Jonathan Powers of Dunstable, and the Jonathan Powers of Lancaster. --Jrich 21:42, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

No. I never posted Jonathan Powers b. 18 July 1726 married Susanna. I looked one day and it was posted. I thought by you. This is what has confused me from the beginning. I posted Jonathan Powers b. 22 July 1744, as the family line indicated. I will do more research into the Chamberlain and Willoughby family line as that is where my genealogy line flows. I will keep researching the father of my great, great, great grandmother Susanna Powers who's mother is Susanna Willoughby. Family names are handed down and there are no Isaac's on the line.--Pat rayburn 22:52, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Powers Genealogy [8 August 2014]

"The Powers Family" Genealogical and Historical Record of Walter Power and some of his descendents to the ninth generation. Compiled by Amos H. Powers, Chicago,Ill., Fergus Printing Co. 1884. Found On Openlibrary.org.

Page 16 Daniel 2 (Walter 1) Powers b.1669 and Elizabeth (Whitecomb) Powers b.1702 of Littleton, Mass. Five children one Jonathan 3 b. 1704 m. Hannah Sawyer.

Page 26 Jonathan 3 (Daniel 2, Walter 1) b. 1704 m. Hannah (Sawyer) Powers of Lancaster, Mass. Nine children Jonathan 4 (Jonathan 3, Daniel 2, Walter l) b. 22 Jul 1744.

The widow Hannah took out letters of administration 1775. worchester Co. Records.

Jonathan born 1704 was not (according to the above) married to Hannah Moore but to Hannah Sawyer. The Jonathan 4 b. 22 Jul 1744 is the one married to Susanna Willoughby.--Pat rayburn 00:42, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Again this is a book, it is easy for a book to say anything. It does not mean it is true, unless the statements can be confirmed by finding contemporary documents that support them.

There are so many holes in the above story that it has no credibility. I already mentioned it on Person:Jonathan Powers (1). He was one of the few authors that realized there are multiple Jonathan Powers, and yet he still gets mixed up.

On page 26, It does not say who 130. Jonathan Powers, b. July 22, 1744, married. No wife is named for him at all. Susannah Willoughby is never mentioned in this book. There is no section devoted to #130. All it says about him is that he was the son of Jonathan Powers and Hannah Sawyer, b. 1744. Except for the surname of Sawyer, I have no problem with this. It indicates the family was of Lancaster, not Dunstable, so nothing is there to suggest he is the "Jonathan Powers of Dunstable" who married Susannah Willoughby.

It shows Jonathan Powers b. 1726 married to Hannah ---, but given all the children the author himself shows under Jonathan Powers and Hannah Sawyer, I have found no additional births in any town naming a Jonathan and Hannah Powers as parents. Clearly he found no marriage record for Jonathan Powers and Hannah --- since he is able to give no maiden name. Meaning that he does not give, nor can I find, any evidence that any Jonathan (other than the one who married Hannah Moore/Sawyer) had a wife named Hannah. And since that marriage to Hannah Moore/Sawyer occurred in 1730, it did not happen to the Jonathan Powers b. 1726, who would have been only 4. I can't even guess why he thinks that this Jonathan had a wife Hannah, since he has no information about the parents after 1736. One would expect this couple had at least 10 more years of child-bearing years left, and so the lack of information on additional children, or death dates, or other records, indicate he doesn't know where they are living after 1736. Any marriage of their son would be at least 10 years after he loses track of them. So how does he presume to know who their son married? He clearly used the wrong death date, since he used the one that belonged to the son of Aaron Powers of Greenwich. Like Jonathan #130, Jonathan #85's coverage is only a line under his parents, with no details on his children, where he lived, or events in his life that might confirm any of those statements. So I don't see much reason to suggest that the author is much of an expert on this Jonathan, and don't consider it a credible statement.

Based on several books that have made comments of various type about the surname Sawyer, particularly one that thought widow Hannah may have married secondly a Mr. Sawyer, what I would guess happened is that Jonathan d. 1766, and his widow Hannah Powers was made administrator of his estate. Then in 1775, the estate still not being settled, new letters of administration were issued to Hannah Sawyer. Since Hannah Moore was b. 1710, 1775 would make her only 65, very possible therefore that this is still the widow, and the name Sawyer would indicate she had remarried a Mr. Sawyer in the interim. If this was true, everybody has little bits of the truth, but nobody tells us the whole story correctly, common to genealogy books. However, that could easily be wrong, too. It could be a daughter remarried a Mr. Sawyer, that the widow Hannah died before settling the estate, so finally one of the daughters stepped up to do it. Alternately, the author got confused and wrote 1775 because he was thinking about the Jonathan Powers who enlisted in the Revolutionary War, but meant 1766 and is referring to the same probate documents already quoted to show Hannah (Moore) Powers was alive in 1766. What could happen is almost unlimited. But what did happen has to be shown by evidence. I have been trying to look up the probate file, but they are not online. There are so many claims, and with so many appearing to be false, the only way to responsibly say what happened is to look up the probate files.

Evidence appears to support that only one Jonathan Powers married a woman named Hannah, and that is Hannah Moore. Besides an actual recorded marriage giving her maiden name as "Hannah More" in 1730, she is named Hannah Powers in her father's will (see Person:Jonathan Moor (1)). A marriage date in 1730 means she either married the Jonathan that was the son of Isaac, or the Jonathan that was the son of Daniel (the only Jonathan's old enough to marry in 1730). There are deeds showing that the Jonathan who married Elizabeth Kidder selling land belonging to Isaac (see Person talk:Jonathan Powers (7), Middlesex Land Records 34:340), so that makes it pretty definite that Jonathan, s/o of Daniel, married Hannah Moore. If somebody says he married Hannah Sawyer, the credibility of that source immediately is suspect. The only open question is to see if there is a small shadow of truth to it, like she married a Mr. Sawyer as her second husband, becoming Hannah Sawyer at the end of her life, not starting her life as Hannah Sawyer. --Jrich 06:30, 9 August 2014 (UTC)