Person:Richard Carpenter (28)

!A Goldsmith by trade? In 1410, City of London Records indicate a Richard Carpenter and Johannes Norman, goldsmiths sponsoring an orphan. Apparently this of one of many encouraged by this Roberts Grand-Uncle John Carpenter, the younger, the noted town clerk of London. SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, 1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by this Richard's uncle, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the above, it lists that "Richard (gfather) was a chandler living in Billiter Lane in 1381. It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the younger's will. Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of the Church of St. Martin.

!BIRTH: 1392 per the Ancestral File and 1389 by the discusion below.

!E-MAIL: 7-15-99. Dear Bruce, The dates you state are impossible, are indeed quite probable. See below. It is important to note that John the younger's will did not state "age of majority" or a similar phrase. We know the phrases "of majority" and "of legal age" was used in that time period. The phrase "full age" is the question. A "full age and mature discretion" is sometime after the age of majority (age 21 for hundreds of years). In present day legal papers it is usually defined as attaining a certain age (or sometimes after marriage or children or some other goal like retirement). The retired lawyer I just talked to stated the wills he developed with the context of a "full age" varied between age 30 and age 55. He will search later his legal phrase books which has histories of various terms for us. As a side note, the phrase "full age", has been used primarily to preserve an estate from the indiscretions of youth. This by keeping it out of their hands until they are responsible (or of mature discretion) enough to handle it. Without knowing the full context of the will, or what defined a "full age and mature discretion", we can only assume it was sometime after the age of majority or after the legal age of 21. How was this phrase used in the context of the times? Does any one know? If it was age 50 to 60, then the age for Richard, son of Robert of Richard & Christina it would then fit about perfectly. Since Richard was born about 1392 according to my records (1392 + 21 = 1413) and should be at least age 21 to serve in the "Memorandum of a mainprise body for body, made in chancery" in November of 1412, this means his estimated birth year should be about 1391 if not sooner. If we use the 1410 sponsoring an orphan this means he would have had to be born by 1389. If you figure his father Robert was about age 18 or 20 when he had Richard (1389 - 18 = 1371 / 1389 - 20 = 1369), you can see that the estimate of Robert's birth is about correct in 1368. Is it possible to get a complete copy of his will? All I have is extracts. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter

Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > John: > in Town Clerk John's 1441 will he refers to his brother Robert's son Richard > thusly, "Also I give and bequelth to my kinsman Richard, son of my brother > Robert,for the increase of his estate when he shall arrive at full age and > mature discretion...." > Thus those 1390s dates for Roberts children are impossible. > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter

!NOTES: See Brother Henry notes also.

MORE: From: "Bruce E Carpenter" <carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> To: <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 4:07 PM Subject: [CARPENTER] Reading Richard > In the John Carpenter the town clerk's will his nephew Richard is mentioned, > an underage son of Robert Carpenter. If Richard survived,what happened to > him? Two possibilities exist from historical records. First is a > Kent/Canterbury Richard Carpenter. This Richard left various documents as he > was Sheriff of Canterbury. However the Kent Carpenters seem descended from a > John Carpenter who left a 1444ish will. Richard came well after this and > seems a descendant. > > The other Richard Carpenter in historical documents was a Richard Carpenter > of Reading in county Berkshire. A Thomas Carpenter of Reading has been > reported on previously. A study of all the material makes the case for > Richard as the father of Thomas i.e. Richard preceded Thomas in Reading > while Thomas remained in a more rural subsidiary town. After references to > Richard cease references to Thomas continue. > > In all the documents concerning Richard are analyzed Richard can be > identified as a man of very considerable wealth and influence. No other > Carpenters can be associated with Reading before him. The implication is > that Richard came from elsewhere with much investment capital. > > The interesting possibility begins to emerge that we Massachusetts > Carpenters may be the descendants of Robert Carpenter the brother of John > the town clerk. > > Bruce Carpenter > Nara, Japan