Person talk:Ann Rice (1)

From Ann Rice (2): Birth Date [11 September 2010]

Note that the VRs of Sudbury, p. 119 contains: "Rice, Ann, d. Edward and Ann, Nov. 19, 1661. M.R." It seems too coincidental that this is the exact same birth date given on this page. Without some source, it is hard to accept this page's presentation as true. Note, the daughter of Edward is Person:Anna Rice (3). The Edmund Rice association only shows two daughters, Lydia and Ruth, by his second marriage. --Jrich 14:29, 7 September 2010 (EDT)

Jrich, i think you're absolutely right, and it might have been my contribution that was the error. I can't now even tell where I got any of this from, so I am completely fine with removing both this Ann Rice as well as the Nathaniel Terry she supposedly married, or at least removing them from the parents Edmund and Mercy. Jillaine 11:39, 8 September 2010 (EDT)

Source:Rice, Charles Elmer. By the Name of Rice, publ. 1910, p. 56 (view here), says Edmund and second wife Mercy had two daughters Ruth b. 29 Sep 1659 and Ann b. 19 Nov 1661. Sudbury records agree on the first, but identify the parents of the second as Edward and Ann as noted above. Mr. Rice says Ann m.12 Nov 1685 Nathaniel Gerry . There was a Nathaniel Gerry of Roxbury, s/o Nathaniel Gerry and Ann "Dugglas", but I can't find the marriage record, so can't comment on why he said this. However, as Nathaniel Gerry's mother's name is also Ann, and his father's name is Nathaniel, same as him, and as the book mis-transcribed the parents' marriage date from 1658 (which is what VR Roxbury says) to 1685 (which is what Mr. Rice gives for the parents), one might been forgiven for suspecting that Mr. Rice was either confused or made a bookkeeping error? Either that, or he embellished Source:Hudson, Charles. History of the Town of Marlborough, Middlesex County, Massachusetts, publ. 1862, which says Edmund had a daughter Ann, b. 19 Nov 1661, probably m. Nathaniel Gerry. Oddly enough, both books also show Edward having a daughter Anna, b. 19 Nov 1661, m. Thomas Rice. --Jrich 20:41, 8 September 2010 (EDT)

Don't know how I missed the marriage. It is right there in VR Roxbury under "Gary" and "Rice". I merged this page with another page already in WeRelate which has no sources, but indicates Ann is d/o John Rice of Dedham. Pursuing this. Either way, these are the same Ann and Nathaniel, it only is a question of who Ann's parents are. --Jrich 09:18, 9 September 2010 (EDT)

Many fine genealogists have investigated Edmund Rice and if they don't think Ann belongs to him (i.e., TAG 10:133), some kind of proof would be needed to say the opposite. So I have removed Family:Edmund Rice and Mercy Hurd (1) as her parents.

I can find no proof that Ann is a daughter of John Rice, nor any indication that her birthdate is 1666. However, it is most likely that her birthdate is not 19 Nov 1661, and I have removed that. So the assertion that she is the daughter of John Rice, b. 1666, simply happens to be what is left of that data that was on this page. Her birthplace was changed to Dedham solely to be consistent with the identification of her father.

Source:Brainerd, Lawrence. Gary Genealogy : The Descendants of Arthur Gary of Roxbury, Massachusetts, with an Account of the Posterity of Stephen Gary of, p. 39, does say: "She was undoubtedly the daughter (birth unrecorded) of John Rice, an early settler of Dedham, Mass. Documentary proof exists that she did not belong to the Deacon Edmund Rice family of Sudbury, as has been claimed by several genealogists.". It is too bad that this source did not detail the "documentary proof". It is hard to imagine how evidence can prove a negative assertion, except by some process of elimination (e.g., documents show Edmund Rice had x children, and we can account for all x without including Ann). --Jrich 20:04, 9 September 2010 (EDT)

Source:Ward, Andrew Henshaw. Genealogical History of the Rice Family : Descendants of Deacon Edmund Rice, Who Came from Berkhamstead, England and Settled at, p. 3, mentions a division of Edmund's estate that references the "eight eldest children" and "the two youngest, being children by the widow". If there were two children by his second wife, that would account for Ruth who is known by explicit record of her birth, and Lydia, who is known by deed 10 May 1662 (see Edmund Rice Association), and by the will of Hugh Drury who mentions his sister Lydia Hawkins (see Source:Holman, Mary Lovering. Ancestry of Colonel John Harrington Stevens and His Wife, Frances Helen Miller, p. 2:131), to be from this family and yet distinct from the Edmund's older daughter Lydia who was the wife of Hugh Drury. This would leave no room for Anne, and presumably this is the "documentary proof" referred to by Brainerd. --Jrich 09:48, 10 September 2010 (EDT)

Great work, jrich! Thanks for taking the time to do the sleuthing. And GREAT that you included all the various sources. Really nice work. Jillaine 13:16, 11 September 2010 (EDT)