Notes

JOHN SENIOR was the eldest brother of JOHN (the younger) who was the noted Town Clerk of London. AF has birth dates reversed 1364 instead of 1372. BIRTH: Abt 1360/1364.

John, the Elder of London, owned over 300 houses in London and had a fish pond on his roof. Per Raymond Carpenter, the genealogist, who references the "fish pond" in various wills. John, the elder inherited the houses from his younger brother. He took over the family business from his father as the eldest child in 1395.

NOTE: The John and Robert mentioned below may have been brothers. It may refer to this John and his brother Robert. E-MAIL: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" The political tensions of the late 1300s provide us with glimpse of the London Carpenters and enough evidence to begin to define them as a family group at this interesting but troubled juncture of English history. The story begins with the opposition to King Richard II by three powerful aristocrats, Richard Fitzalan earl of Arundel, Thomas Beauchamp earl of Warwick and Thomas of Woodstock duke of Gloucester. Open conflict begins in the late 1380s. Members of the King's faction are impeached by Parliament by the urging of the above three. The King retaliates against the supporters of the three. In the midst of this we find Richard Carpenter and his sons John and Robert harassed and arrested. The implication of this is that the Carpenters must have held land from the three, and their economic activities must have been intertwined. Ten years later in the late 1390s King Richard II had his revenge on the three aristocrats. Arundel was executed, Gloucester murdered and Beauchamp banished. John of Gaunt, the man behind the scene in all of this, remains neutral until his son Henry Bolinbroke finally deposes King Richard II and he himself becomes King Henry IV. This sets the stage for the long War of Roses, the conflict between the Lancaster and Yorkist claims to the throne, with the Carpenters naturally on the Lancaster side. When the three above aristocrats had their estates confiscated, the litigation for one of them happily lists the tenants. John and Robert Carpenter appear as holding a good proportion of the land. The document is extremely Long and I will give portions of it. It is from the Calendar of Inquisitions, document 298. "Thomas duke of Gloucester had on the day of his forfeiture the manor of Tarent Launston__..There are 2 carucates of land of 200 acres each__.pasture on `le Doune' for 400 sheep worth 6s. 8d. yearly in excess of their winter keep, the shepherd's wages and livery and grease for the sheep__John Rauwe, John Hayne, John Carpenter, Walter Russell, Robert Carpenter, John Chubbe, Vincent Pynselond, Walter Serle, Thomas and John Russell, Rodger Trubbe, John Rodger and John Roule, whole virgaters, each holding a messuage and 24 acres of land, paying 4s. yearly and doing works worth 2s. yearly." The manor appears to have been in Dorcet. We can assume that the Carpenters didn't live on the manor. This land was probably one of many of their holdings. In the document mention is made of the kind of people who actually managed the land for their absent landlords. The document describes various uses the land was put to. Sheep were a detailed and special mention, but not the only mentioned use. Unfortunately which tenant had the sheep is not specified, although I suspect the Carpenters.

From: John R Carpenter 2 To: Tony Carpenter Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:22 PM Subject: Re: John Carpenter of Battlesden; Tony,

If we are talking 1405 and Thomas atte Wode had already married John Carpenter's daughter, we must assume that she was born at a minimum 15 to 20 years prior to 1405. This would be about 1385 to 1390.

Add a minimum of about 20 years prior to 1385 to 1390 and you get a minimum birth year of about 1365 to 1370 for John Carpenter who died by 1405.

We know that John Carpenter-89 "the Younger" (The noted town clerk of London) had no children and died after 1405.

His brother, John Carpenter-88 the Elder was born about 1362 but I have a baptism date of 20 Sep 1371. No death date was given, however, his youngest children were baptized in December of 1404.

He has one daughter listed who I found no baptism or birth date for. I estimated her birth in the mid range of the known children which was about 1402. If she was from a first marriage, she would have been older.

There is a hamlet of Battlesden in Bedfordshire, England. It borders Cambridgeshire, Northamptonshire, Buckinghamshire (with the Borough of Milton Keynes) and Hertfordshire. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedfordshire

However I have no Carpenters located in Bedford or Kent prior to 1550s in my records.

There is one more Carpenter family that is possible.

John Carpenter-68742 was born about 1355 in Dilwyne, Herefordshire, England. His father was named John Carpenter. He had the following children:

              2 M        i.  William Carpenter-68743 was born about 1376 in Dilwyne, Herefordshire, England.
              3 M       ii.  John Carpenter-68744 was christened on 18 Dec 1378 in Dilwyne, Hereford, England.

There is a history of Atwoods (atte wode) on file for that time period but born probably in Surrey.

http://www.sanderstead-parish.org.uk/html/atwood_genealogy.html Generation 7 Name: Peter Atte Wode Born: About 1360 (probably in Sanderstead, Surrey) Christened: Unknown Married: Pentronilla (born about 1364 in Sanderstead, Surrey) Died: After 1384 Buried: Unknown Parents: Peter Atte Wode & Laweance. Children: John Atte Wode Peter Atte Wode gained possession of Guildford Manor far east of Surrey. He was �SKnight of the Shire�T (Chief of the District�T) In 1384, he became a member of Parliament for Guildford.

We do not have enough data to confirm which John Carpenter above or another is John Carpenter of Battlesden.

Do you have any other thoughts or data?

John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA

From: Tony Carpenter To: John R Carpenter 2 Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:55 AM

John the Elder or John the Younger? Cant make it fit. Tony C

Context

 SC 8  Special Collections: Ancient Petitions

Subseries within SC 8  PETITIONS TO THE KING; TO THE KING AND COUNCIL; TO THE COUNCIL; TO THE PARLIAMENT; AND THE LIKE.

SC 8/230  11451-11500. Individual petitions are described and dated at Item level.

Record Summary Scope and content

Petitioners: Thomas atte Wode, valet of the Stable of the Queen.

Addressees: King.

Places mentioned: Battlesden, [Bedfordshire]; Kent.

Other people mentioned: John Carpenter of Battlesden; Nicholas Hart, knight; William Jolyf (Joliffe).

Nature of request: Wode requests that he be granted certain goods and chattels of John Carpenter to the amount of £20 as the goods and chattels amount to 80 marks and more. Wode has married Carpenter's daughter, and Carpenter has been outlawed at the suit of Hart for a certain sum of money in which Carpenter was pledge to Joliffe whereby his moveable goods have been seized into the hand of the escheator of Kent. Wode has been granted £50 from the goods but forfeits are assigned to the expenses of the Household and the council will not give £20.

Endorsement: [There is an apparent draft of the petition on the dorse, though it is parts badly fades and illegible].

Covering dates

[1405]

Availability

Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years

Note

The petition dates to 1405 as the £20 was granted to the petitioner on 5 February 1405 (CPR 1401-5, p.453).

Held by

The National Archives, Kew

Sources