Person talk:Roger de Montalt (1)

Straightening out this family - done [24 March 2011]

I've spent a bit of time updating some members of this family based on information I found in Ormerod (History of County Palatine and City of Chester), and just today found a correction to this information (in Weis). I plan to make the correction in my own database first, so it may take a day or two before I correct WeRelate.

I also checked Roger's ancestors in WeRelate and found a bit of mess a few generations back. I'm finding it harder to find sources to correct this information - just a few speculative mentions. However, I plan to "clean up" the data, even though it might not be accurate when I am done - just a bit more reasonable.

For the record (in case I make mistakes during my clean up), this is what the data looks like now:

Roger de Montalt (1) (1190-1260) m. Cecily d'Aubigney (1) (1198 - 1243+) They had: Leuca de Mohaut (1) (1213-1227), who m. Philip de Orreby (8) (1200-1230) They had: Agnes de Orreby (1) (1217-1300+) who m. Walchelin de Arderne (1) (1220-1265)

Roger de Montalt (1) was son of: Robert de Montalt (1) (1150- ) and unknown. Robert de Montalt (1) was son of: Robert de Mohaut (1) (1125-1162) and Leucha Fitzneel (1) (1130-1162)

Robert de Mohaut (1) has 2 sets of parents: (first) William Fitznigel (1) (1058-1134) and unknown (second) unknown and Agnes de Gant (1) (1085-1180), daughter of Gilbert Gant (1) (1048-1095) and Alice Montfort (1) (1050-1091)

William Fitznigel (1) has 2 sets of parents:

(first) Nigel de Cotentin (1) (1043-1080) [son of Ivo de Cotentin (1) (1026-1054) and Emme De Bretagne (1) (1026-1049)] and unknown

(second) unknown and Nigel Chester (1) (1043- )

Leucha Fitzneel (1) is daughter of: William Fitz Nigell (1) (1085-1153) and Agnes de Gant (1) (same person as above, named as a possible mother of Leucha's husband) William Fitz Nigell (1) is son of: Nigell Chester (1) (1060-1080) [son of Ebon Contentin (1) (1020-1060) and Emma Brittany (2) (1025-1095)] and Unknown de Widness (1) (1062- ) [daughter of Yarfrid de Widness (1040-1134) and Yarfrid Widness (1) (1043- )]

Commenting first on the parents of Robert de Mohaut (1) and Leucha Fitzneel (1), it is obvious that they are both given the same set of parents (more-or-less). From my reading, it appears that William Fitz Nigel and Agnes de Gant are considered the possible parents of Leucha. Therefore, I plan to remove them from Robert de Mohaut (whose ancestry is probably unknown), and merge and otherwise clean up the records for William Fitz Nigel, Agnes de Gant and their ancestors - using my judgment in the lack of sources.

There is also the correction to make on Roger de Mohaut, which I will describe (probably) tomorrow, as my daughter is seeking my attention now. Hate to leave a teaser - but I will get back to this within a day or two.

Anyone with more information who wants to tackle this before I get around to it, please do so or add comments here. --DataAnalyst 23:20, 22 March 2011 (EDT)

When you see things that seem to be hopelessly muddled, and sources are no where in sight, feel free to nominate for speedy delete. When I try to unravel such messes - if the sources do not rapidly present themselves - I delete with the rationale that stuff this old is just unreasonable without support. --Jrm03063 12:41, 23 March 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the advice - I may make use of it. However, I will try to make sense of things first, as my guess is that there is some support for some of this info somewhere - although only speculation for some of the inter-generational links.

To continue from last night, the changes for Roger de Montalt are that the Roger who was the son of Robert de Montalt and father of Leuca de Montalt/Mohaut was married to a Nicole, not Cecily d'Aubigney, and he died about 1231. Cecily married another Roger de Montalt/Mohaut, who was the nephew of the first one, and died in 1260. I will create the appropriate records (with citations) to correct this situation. --DataAnalyst 20:43, 23 March 2011 (EDT)

By all means, fight the good fight. Just don't forget that it's easy to re-create stuff if/when sources become available/apparent. Struggling too much with something that isn't clear can be a time waster while there are spaces and places for which source information is to be had and you can make good progress. --Jrm03063 22:25, 23 March 2011 (EDT)

I have found yet more info on Roger de Montalt - and now believe that there were 3 of them that have been confused as either 1 or 2, depending on the source. There is scant evidence for one of them (a record of a death in 1232 which cannot apply to either of the other two), so I stand to be corrected, but I am continuing to make changes based on the assumption that there were 3 of them. --DataAnalyst 19:41, 24 March 2011 (EDT)

I have completed the cleanup that I had planned. Not perfect, but better than it was before. I'd be interested to see if anyone has a different interpretation of the evidence, such as it is. --DataAnalyst 22:46, 24 March 2011 (EDT)