Person talk:Ernest Knott (2)

Who is Ernest? [3 May 2013]

- Ernest was born around 1870

- In the civil records he was not listed on 18 May 1872 when they entered Bedum!

- The family left the Netherlands with 4 children in 1882

- The family arrived in New York 31 May 1882 with 3 children J(Jan), A(Anna), P(Pieter)

- There is not a family Knot listed on the Nemesis on 31 May 1882 [1]

- Pieter arrived in 1892?

- Is Ernest Pieter and is Pieter someone else?

↑ Bedum Bevolking; FHL Film #0576750, in Bedum (Groningen). Bevolkingsregister. Registers der bevolking, 1850-1900. (Salt Lake City, Utah: Genealogical Society of Utah, 1968), Primary quality. Noordwolde #27 Knot, Hilbrand, male, head, born 29 Sept. 1833, Kantens, married, NH religion, House #4s, day laborer, entered Gemeente 18 May 1872 from Middelstum Roemers, Etje, female, wife, born 19 June 1833 in Dilfzije, married, no occupation Knot, Jan, male, son, born 30 June 1868, Bedum, single, no occupation Knot, Anna, female, daughter, born 17 November 1869, Middelstum, single, no occupation Knot, Pieter, male, son, born 27 May 1872, Bedum, single, no occupation Gerber, Anna, female, mother, born 1808 in Erij[_]nskerk, widow, no occupation, arrived 28 November 1872 from [?], left 18 April 1877 to Groningen

↑ AlleGroningers. (Regionaal Historisch Centrum - Groninger Archieven), Secondary quality. Emigrant Hilbrand Knot 48 jaar daglooner Vertrek uit Bedum Vertrek naar Noord-Amerika Datum vertrek 1882 Religie Christelijk Gereformeerd Vrouw 1 Kinderen 4 Reden van vertrek Verbetering van bestaan. Welgestelden, Mindergegoeden, Behoeftigen Mindergegoeden Hoofdelijke omslag Neen Bron Staat van landverhuizers in 1882 Groningen (Provincie) (toegang 800) Inventarisnummer 5548

↑ New York City, New York, United States. New York Passenger Lists, Primary quality. Steamer Nemesis, from Amsterdam, arriving in New York 31 May 1882 H. Knot, age 48 B. Knot, age 42 J. Knot, age 8 A. Knot, age 7 P. Knot, age 5 [Note: information is on the last page, and much of it is missing]--henk 07:44, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

Hi, Henk,

Yes, there are problems with this family.

The simple answer to your question of who is Ernest -- he is the brother of John, at least according to the 1910 and 1920 US Census Records. He is also the son of Hilbrand Knot, according to his death Record. (And he is living with John in 1900 -- thanks for catching that one!)

Why there is no birth record for him in the Netherlands (at least not one that I've found), I don't know. And as you say, he does not appear in the Bevolkinsregister in Noordwolde in 1827 with Hilbrand and Etje. That bothers me less than the lack of a birth record, however. Sometimes children did live with other families for whatever reason. When I found Hilbrand in the Bevolkingsregister, I wasn't looking for Ernest (what would his Dutch name have been?). I can recheck the films for the years between 1872 and 1882, but that will take some time.

When Hilbrand left Bedum, he is listed as leaving with his wife and four children. We know that the oldest son, Hindrik, remained in The Netherlands. So that would mean Hilbrand left Bedum with his wife and children Jan, Anna, Pieter and one other, unknown, child.
(I checked the emigration record for Tjeert Knot, and the number of children listed for him is the number of children who emigrated with him, not the number of children he fathered.)
I tend to trust the Dutch records a bit more than I do some US records, and this is one record that I assume would be reasonably accurate.

The ship's passenger list for the Nemesis shows only 3 children, their ages are all 5 years too young, and the woman's first initial is wrong. But H. Knot is the right age, and the children are at least in the right birth order, even if they are too young. I went back through the images on Ancestry.com (these are original images), and the same family is actually listed three times. One time it gives their place of origin as "Ellerhuizen", which I gather is in Bedum. (Ship's passenger lists, unfortunately, are not the most reliable sources of information.) Why does it not show a fourth child? And why are they listed three times? I don't know.

No, H. Knot does not show up on the Castle Garden Index. A lot of people do not. (Tjeert Knot and his family, for example.) I'm not sure if it is because the lists are so hard to read, or what, but I do know that a lot of my ancestors do not show up there. I've pretty much stopped using it, even though it is free, because there are so many problems with it. Too bad Ancestry.com is a subscription site. There are places here in North America where you can use it for free, but I don't know about The Netherlands.

As for Ernest being Peter, that is tempting, but Peter gives his birth date in the 1900 Census as May 1872, which is the right birth date for Pieter, son of Hilbrand. There is no other Pieter Knot in AlleGroningers born that year. Peter does give his date of immigration as 1889, but he does not appear in the New York Passenger lists for 1889, and I also checked Swierenga's "Dutch Immigrants: New York Pasenger Lists" for any Knot in 1889, and there are none. (Swierenga is occasionaly wrong, but he is a lot more reliable, and more thorough, than Castle Garden.) I've found reported dates of immigration are often less reliable in census records, mostly because people sort of guess after awhile.

I haven't found Peter in the 1940 US Census, and he does not have a death record in Oregon, the last place that we know he lived. He also does not have a death record in Washington state or California. And he is not listed on Find A Grave. So I don't know what happened to him, or where we could find a death record. But he does seem to be the son of Hilbrand and Eltje, both because of his birth date, and because his middle initial is H.

One person we know nothing about is Anna. Is it possible that Anna became Ernest? Ernest never married, and most of the time lived with his brother John. Or did Anna die? Or get married? (I haven't found a marriage record for her, but that doesn't mean she didn't marry.)
Then again, the emigration record for Hilbrand says he had four children going with him, so I don't know.

My inclination is to leave it the way it is -- we have recorded what we know, however confusing that seems to be. Maybe someone else will find a record that solves the problem, some day. --GayelKnott 22:31, 30 April 2013 (EDT)

According to the birth certificate the child born 16 Oct 1869 was called Anne, and male. I am sure, that the father told the right thing announcing the birth. So Ernest=Anne.--Klaas 01:46, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

Klopt helemaal, de meest voor de hand liggende oplossingen zie je vaak over het hoofd ;-) dank je! (Klaas is definitely right! sometimes the answers are so simple ;-) --henk 03:03, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

Anna and Ernest as the same person makes the most sense of the various bits of information, although Anna is listed as a female in both the Bevolkinsregister and on the ships list. Maybe there were some gender issues there, of some sort. Rather than merging the two pages, I'm putting red flags on both pages, directing people to see this discussion. Hope that's okay. --GayelKnott 11:08, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

I think the birth record is the only trustable information because just that moment the father is there to tell the officials the right name which is Anne and not Anna and the sex which is clearly stated as male. The Bevolkingsregister is made by clarks just copying the original records full of mistakes. It is very good to realize, that the Bevolkingsregister is not an original for the dates of birth, marriage and death, they are records for the residencial information and changes. In case dates are not identical with the official certificates, the Bevolkingsregister makes always the second. I am convinced, that for the transport by ship or just for emigrating somewhere the detailed information has been taken from the Bevolkingsregister and is not checked with the original certificates. So in my opinion: there has been no daughter Anna, only a son Anne who was called Ernest in the States.--Klaas 11:30, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

I fully agree with Klaas: the Birth record is trustable and besides that Hilbrand could read and write --henk 13:17, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

So, do we want to merge the two pages? I'm okay with doing so.--GayelKnott 14:45, 3 May 2013 (EDT)

I merged the pages, you might want to look into the notes/sources to adjust the texts a bit.--Klaas 15:29, 3 May 2013 (EDT)

Thanks, Klaas. --GayelKnott 19:13, 3 May 2013 (EDT)