Person:Richard Carpenter (32)

!Raymond George Carpenter, the genealogist, states that this Richard Carpenter was Vicar General of Ramsbury to the Bishop of Salisbury. He was a CATHOLIC PRIEST, he died in 1503. See notes below. Coat-of-Arms below. Per Oxford University Records he came from Hereford and had brothers James, John, and William.

!The Reverend Richard Carpenter followed in the footsteps of his granduncle John Carpenter the Elder, Bishop of Worcester and served in the same Church at Westbury. Richard Carpenter was Canon of Westbury upon Trin (Tryn) in Gloucestershire and Vicar of Mixbury in Oxfordshire and possibly in Trottescliffe in Kent. He was Vicar of Ramsbury in Wiltshire. He was PROBABLY NOT of Colford parish in Gloucester.

BIRTH: 1465/1470 !WILL: The will of Rev. Richard Carpenter mentions sons Robert & Peter. - SEE NOTE BELOW! NOT sons! http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=1057179&queryType=1&resultcount=613 WILL: Image details Description Will of Richard Carpenter, Priest Date 28 September 1503 Catalogue reference PROB 11/13 Dept Records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury Series Prerogative Court of Canterbury and related Probate Jurisdictions: Will Registers Piece Name of Register: Blanyr Image contains 1 will of many for the catalogue reference Number of image files: 1 Image Reference Format and Version Part Number Size (KB) Number of Pages Price (£) 482 / 2357 PDF 1.2 1 389 2 3.50 Total Price (£) 3.50

!SEE: Also: (WN & Q) Wiltshire Notes and Queries, Pages 256-258 and 293 which lists The Wilshire Wills proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury (1383-1558): "1503 Carpenter, Rychard, D.C.L. and priest, Remmesbury (= Ramsbury, Wilts) (Wilts?) Mixbury, Oxford. (Oxfordshire) 25 Blamyr." There are two other CARPENTER notes in the above record. They read: "1524 Carpenter, als. Morecock, Roger, Hornyngesham, Wilts. F. 31 Bodfelde." "1547 Carpenter, sir Thomas, priste, Cathedral of Sarum. F. 10 Allen." The 1547 year note probably refers to this Richard's grandson. The "F." notes represent the books or records the references were found in. The 1524 year note may refer to a son not listed in his will. The descendants of Roger claim a coat of arms identical from Rev. Richard Carpenter.

!Because Richard Carpenter was a Catholic Priest, his coat of arms of three cross crosslets, derived from John Carpenter the Younger of London would pass down to his descendants with a green bend sinister. (bend sinister, vert.) Even though priests were required to be celibates, it was not unusal in those times for church officials of all ranks to have families named in their wills, though of course no wife was named.

!His Coat-of-Arms were probably granted when he was at Coleford, Newland parish, Gloucester County. See page 356 in the book, Carpenter Family in America, by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. (or this was his son or grandson? GRANDSON!)

!Some speculation was that his wife's name was Susan Trevelian. However this is wrong.

!E-MAIL: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 From: Bruce E. Carpenter <[email protected]>

The following is the official information on priest Richard Carpenter for those who would wish to have it. It is from Oxford University and is authoritative. Note the question of sons.  BC

"Dear Professor Carpenter, A.B. Emden's 'Biographical Register of the University of Oxford to A.D. 1500' gives the following details for a Richard Carpenter from the Hereford diocese: Bachelor of Civil Law by 1486 Doctor of Civil Law by 1500 Was granted letters dismissory to all orders 10 May 1486 Ordained acolyte in Cumnor Church, Berks, 20 May 1486 Ordained deacon 5 June 1490 Canon of Westbury-on-Trym, Gloucs., and prebendary of Laurensweston, in 1498; till death Rector of Trottiscliffe, Kent, collated 20 Feb. 1500, vacated by Oct. 1500 Rector of Mixbury, Oxon., admitted 1 May 1501; till death A proctor in the court of Buckingham archdeaconry 1493 Vicar general of Edmund Audley, Bishop of Salisbury, in 1502 Died 1503. Will dated 19 August 1503 proved 28 September 1503 Requested burial in chancel of Ramsbury church, Wilts. Emden does not give a date for ordination to the priesthood and I am not sure whether Carpenter could have held the offices he did simply as a deacon. I have not as yet been able to find details of any sons. Could you let me know the source of your information? Yours sincerely, Clare Brown Mrs Clare Brown Department of Special Collections and Western Manuscripts Bodleian Library Broad Street Oxford OX1 3BG Tel.: +44 (0)1865-277152"

!E-MAIL: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 From: Bruce E. Carpenter <[email protected]> I have been finding some exciting material on Carpenter history for the 1500s and plan to post after the New Year. In summary Richard Carpenter was the assistant of Bishop Audley at Salisbury. Audley then moved to Ramsbury where Richard died. They both seemed to come from Hereford. Richard spent an extremely short time in Wiltshire before his death. Audley was said to have gained his position due to old family loyalty to the Lancasters.This is significant. Richard was partly funded in Salisbury by the Hungerford family who were Lancaster loyalists. The Hungerford family (lords of) owned the huge estate of Upton Scudmore which was part of a network of wool producing estates. The Carpenters were freeholders on the estate and had 60 acres of their own land as late as 1600 when Christopher Carpenter still held title. Christopher was the youngest son of Robert Carpenter who was presumably of priest Richard. Presumptions are that the Upton Scudmore Carpenters produced their own wool and probably had much to do concerning the greater estate wool. An interesting point is that the youngest of Scudmore Robert's sons was left in the area by late 1500. The other sons moved to land in other areas. The House of Lancaster connection here points to business as usual for the English Carpenters. This was unexpected. BC

E-MAIL: From: John R Carpenter (JRC) To: [email protected] ; [email protected] ; Terry Carpenter Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:18 PM Subject: Re: Will of Richard Carpenter - d. 1503 Okay, Did I miss something? This is the will of the Rev. Richard Carpenter-2781 b. abt 1468 in Homme, Herefordshire, England. He died in 1503 in , Wiltshire, England and was buried in Ramsbury, Church, Wiltshire, England. See attached. Note, I stripped out most of the notes to focus on his line. It appears to match most of what I have listed in the CE CD 2001. John F. Chandler replied: "There wasn't actually any prescribed systematic set of differences to denote particular situations. I suppose the above sentence was written with the assumption that any children of a priest would be illegitimate and that a bend sinister was the universal mark of an illegitimate son, but neither assumption is true. Also, as Gene pointed out, the undifferenced arms wouldn't have passed to Richard unless he was the eldest son in the first place. The whole point of heraldry is that each coat of arms is always a UNIQUE emblem for its current bearer, not shared with anyone else (living) in the world." "Because Richard Carpenter was a Catholic Priest, his coat of arms of three cross crosslets, derived from John Carpenter the Younger of London would pass down to his descendants with a green bend sinister. (bend sinister, vert.) " - I had a note that this was in latin ... ? Was it mentioned in the latin portion of the will? John F. Chandler replied: "Not mentioned anywhere. Gene mentioned the paragraph in Latin, which gave the probate details. There was also a sentence in Latin tacked onto the end of the will itself -- this merely named the witnesses." Gene Zubrinsky replied: "The paragraph in Latin, as is typical, pertains only to the will's being proved when presented to the court. Note the first word: "Probatum." A coat of arms could pass only to the eldest son in each generation. In that the estate (particularly lands) of the deceased also typically devolved to the eldest son (primogeniture), it was common for younger sons to seek their respective fortunes in the military or clergy. That this Richard was a clergyman (his also being a "doctor of Civille" was equally atypical of a landed gentleman) makes me wonder whether he was his father's eldest son. If he was not, he would have had no legitimate claim to a coat of arms." Curious! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA

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Basic parts of the will  ... Carpenter Will of 19 Aug 1503

Richard Carpenter, Doctor of Civil Law & RC Priest 19 Aug 1503 Will date 28 Sep 1503 - the date of probate Buried in the "chauncell of the churche of Remmesbury." He had been at "my church of Mixbury in the countie of Oxenford."

His brothers: James Carpenter-92 ... and his wife was Jone. John F. Chandler remarked: "Don't assume that "Jone" is the "correct" spelling of her name just because that's how it appears in the will. Note that there was no such thing as "correct" spelling back then. Also, note that Richard's name was spelled "Rychard" in the will. Since consistent spelling is a modern invention, you must use the modern spelling if you want to be consistent." John Carpenter-2639 William Carpenter-2641

He had at least one son. "eldest sone" - probably Robert or some one else? John F. Chandler remarked: "I think that was actually the eldest son of his brother James. It was a bequest of a robe to James and the hood of that same robe to "eldest son" with the possessive pronoun omitted at the end of a line of writing." Robert "my sonne" "youman" Carpenter-14706 - SEE NOTE below - "svnt" instead of sonne! Peter "my sunne" Carpenter-14704 - SEE NOTE below - "svnt" instead of my sunne?! and he had been married, "and to my moder in law." John F. Chandler remarked: "Mother-in-law could also mean stepmother. He wasn't necessarily ever married." Others: "Mr Richard Saynt John of Sarisburi" (Salisbury) "Richard Mathew"

Executors: "executors Mr John Rook, Sir John Woodrofe preste

James Carpenter my broder and John Appleder"

"my supvisor the Reverend fader in God and my most singuler good lord Edmond the Bishop of Sarisbury. Hiis testibr Mro Ric[ard]o Sayntiohn et Mro Ric[ard]o Mathew publicis anote notaries" ////// From: "Terry Carpenter" <[email protected] To: <[email protected]; <[email protected] Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Hello from John R. Carpenter - La Mesa, CA

John:  If this is the will you're looking for:

 In the name of God Amen.  The xix day of August
 in the yere of our Lord mdiij, I Rychard
 Carpenter doctor of Crulle(?) & preest with hoole
 mynd and stable mak and ordeyne this my testament in
 suche  maner and forme as hereafter ensueth.  First I
 bequeth my soule to almyghty God to our Blessed Lady
 Seynt Mare
 his moder and to all the company of heven and my
 body to be buried in the chauncell of the churche of
 Remmesbury before the sacrament of high awe.  Item I
 bequeth to the curat of the same church for my
 tythes  whych I have not don acordyng to my dutie iij s iiij
 d and for my seputure vj s viij d.  Item I bequeth
 to  the Rood in the same church vj s viij d and to c_ry
 light there iiij d. Item I bequeth to my church of
 Mixbury
 in the Countie of Oxenford x s And to the church of
 Troveselesh(?) in Kent iiij s.  Item I begueth to
 James Carpenter
 my broder my jaket of welwet and my dublet of sateyn
 and to my broder John Carpenter my dublet of
 sarsenet and my jaket of chainlet And to my broder
 William Carpenter a doublet of Stainell my best
 short
 tawny gowne my best capp and my best housen of tawny
 color.  Item I bequethe to my suster Jone Carpenter
 the wife of the seid James Carpenter my broder my murcey
 gowne engrayned and the hood of the same gowne to
 eldest sone and to my moder in law my tharlet gowne.
  Item I bequeth to Mr Richard Saynt John of Sari-
 sburi ij of my best tippetts.  Item to Richard
 Mathew I bequeth vj s viij d.  Item I bequeth to
 Robert my sevt (NOT "sonne")
 a horse able for any youman with the bridell and
 sadell and harneys wiche he used in Ryding and a
 long hevey
 gowne with the lyning And to Peter my sevt (NOT sunne) I
 bequeth my male horse with the bridell and sadell
 and harneys
 longyng to the same horse.  Item I make and ordeyne
 myn executors Mr John Rook, Sir John Woodrofe preste
 James Carpenter my broder and John Appleder and
 evryche of theym in whom I put my trust to see this
 my prsent testament fulfilled and to dispose for the
 welth of my sole.  Item I ordeyne and make my
 supvisor the
 Reverend fader in God and my most singuler good lord
 Edmond the Bishop of Sarisbury.  Hiis testibr Mro
 Ric[ard]o Sayntiohn et Mro Ric[ard]o Mathew publicis
 anote notariis

 (I have capitalized some words to follow modern  conventions and spelledout the ubiquitous "wt" as "with" and also brought the superscript "r"  and "m" into line, but otherwise observed the original spelling.)

  May have to get someone who has more expertise to decipher the writing.  The probate is even more challenging -- it is in Latin.

John F. Chandler replied:

 The probate can be summed up in one phrase:  xxviij die mens Septembr Anno dmni Millesimo  quincsentesimo trio.
   28 Sep 1503 - the date of probate.  I doubt if it's  worth the  effort to decipher the rest.  Nobody really cares  that Roger Church was the official who held the hearing...

Then Gene Zubrinski's additions were to propose "doctor of Crulle(?)" was "doctor of Civil Law" and "Troveselesh(?)" was Trottiscliffe, pronounced"Trosley".

Terry Lee Carpenter

NOTE: From: "John Chandler" <[email protected]> To: "John Carpenter" <[email protected]>; "Terry Carpenter" <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Will of Rev. Richard Carpenter > John and Terry, > You'll be interested to learn that Gene has pointed out another error > in my transcription of the 1503 will. The word I interpreted as 'son' > (ending with an 'e') actually ends with a 't'. It appears that Richard > Carpenter did *not*, after all, mention two sons in his will, but rather > two *servants*. I gather that others in the past have reported that the > will mentioned two sons, and I judge those reports were based on the same > type of misreading that tripped me up. I have been staring at the words > for the past couple of days, and I am now firmly convinced that they are > not sons. (The reference to the 'eldest sone' of Richard's brother is > ok, though, apart from the evident omission of the word 'his'.) > > John