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This is an excerpt from a post to SGM (full post is in notes under Ermengarde de Tonnerre), 5 Dec 1998, by Settipani, the noted French genealogist: The Ascendancy of Ermengarde of Tonnerre : Part II The ancestry of Helvisa (no 3) is unknown, but I suppose her a niece of Hardoin, bishop of Noyon (1015-1027) (M. Chaume believed she was a sister of his). Hardoin is brother of Garnier and son of Robert of Croyes. Probably they are issued of Waltharius (Gauthier, Walter), count of Valois, Amiens and Vexin (d. c. 992/8), grandson of the caroligian Helvisa. References
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