Family talk:Pybe van Haerda and Jouck van Burmania (3)

Possible Duplicate? [25 November 2015]

Except for the age of Jouck, this appears to be a duplicate of Family:Pybe van Haerda and Jouck van Burmania (2). It looks like Jouck's birth date should be 1748 on both pages and the two pages merged. What do you think?

By the way, do you have any sources? That would also help.

Thanks, Gayel--GayelKnott 16:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

H.Jager, Haven't hear back from you. If you don't want these pages merged, could you please provide some explanation for why they are not the same? Thanks, Gayel --GayelKnott 20:50, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello Gayel Knott'

Thank you for your message dated 19 november 2015 pertaining Pybe van Haerda and Jouck van Burmania %283%29&action=edit&section=1&cmt=new. My excuses for my late returnmessage of today but I did spend a lot of time in finding out de status of 'Jouck Tjaertsdr Hania'and Jouck Riencksdr van Burmania'together with the question whether these are two different persons or just one the same person. So far based on the information available to me up to now I still think that they are indeed 2 different persons. I shall explain this further to you. Amongst others I consulted recently many historical (digital converted) books on this subject.

The mother of both Joucks is Bauck Douwesdr van Burmania *1430 +1485. She married 3 times according to my sheet of her familytree as follows, originated from internet Explorer after entering the following address: 'http://gw.geneanet.org/janjellema?lang=nl&pz=marten+thomas&nz=tjepkema&ocz=templ=mobile&p=bauck+douwesdr&n=van+burmania' with a correction on the date her death (1470 should be 1485).

Bauck Douwesdr van Burmania *1430 +1485:

(1) married (15 yr) 1445 Tjaerdt Hania van Burmania *1430 +1472 with 4 children: a. M Binnert Tiaerdts Hania *1445 +? b. F Eeck Aack Tjaerdtsdr Hania van Burmania *1450 +1494 c. F Jouck Tjaerdtsdr van Burmania *1455 +1531 d. F Bauck Tiaerds Hania *1460 +?

(2) married Rienck Riencks van Burmania *1430 +1474

(3) married 1478 Rienck Upckes Gratinga van Burmania *1442 +1494 with 4 children: a. M Douwe Riencks van Burmania *1475 +1551 b. M Upcke Riencks van Burmania *1478 +1557 c. F Jouck Riencks van Burmania *1478 +? d. M Rienck Riencks van Burmania *1486 (or 1485?) +?

I suppose you will agree with me that (1) and (3) are 2 complete separate families with both a Jouck as a child. I shall try to make sometime the dates of Jouck Riencks more complete. Since on the werelate pages the very first name and the last name only appear this makes it very difficult to distinguish different persons if these two names are identical without dates added to these. The in between names were in the past just meant to distinguish each other. The digital sources I mentioned are for instance the following (they are all in the Dutch or Frisian language; I am sorry)

- 'Genealogie van de Friese adel' volgens Upcke van Burmania; dated about 1600; presenting the different branches of the Burmania-families amongst them 'van Hania' and 'Gratinga'; 25 pages published in the Frisean 'Genealogysk Jierboek 2000'.

- Genealogische bestanden van de oude Friese adel en aanverwante families tot 1800 published recently.

 http://www.simonwierstra.nl/index6.htm

- 'Genealogia_Ayattana_Genealogysk_Jierboek_2011.pdf' at https://pure.knaw.nl?portal/files/479364/' by O. Hellinga, dated 1743.

- 'Stamboek van den Frieschen Adel', dated 1846; 2 volumes 850 pages each.

- 'Biografisch Woordenboek der Nederlanden'; dated 1858 - 1878; 21 volumes, 950 pages each.

I hope that I convinced you that we have 2 Joucks at stake. With kind regards and best wishes for Thanks Giving Day.

Harry (Harmannus) Jager, Netherlands--H.Jager 11:05, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I will put a "do not merge" template on one of the pages. I also put a note on Bauck's page to see this page for sources. Having the sources on the person and family pages really helps others to understand what is happening, and it looks like you've done a lot of research. Gayel --GayelKnott 17:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Do you know about the Speculative Wife template? [8 December 2015]

Hi, Harry,

Looks like you are doing more research on these families, and creating more duplicate Family pages for them. It would probably be better to use the SpeculativeWife Template or the SpeculativeHusband Template while you are researching, and then creating a Family page once you are sure of which husband goes with which wife.

An explanation of how to use the templates can be found here: Speculative Family Connection.

The problem with creating duplicate family pages is that the computer keeps track of duplicate family pages and compiles them in a report. When you create duplicate pages for multiple speculate families, they end up in the report looking like this:

WeRelate is not supposed to have duplicate pages, and one of the things I do as a volunteer administrator is to try remove duplicate pages, either by merging ones that are duplicates, or by adding a "Do Not Merge" template to one of the pages. When it is not clear whether the two families are the same, then I have to ask the people who created the pages for an explanation. Since you are researching these people, you do not yet have an explanation of who really is married to whom.

If you use the speculative templates on the individual Person pages, the pages will still be linked to each other so that you can track people while you are doing your research. Then, when you have the marriages sorted out, you can create Family pages. That way there would not be so many duplicate pages showing up in the computer reports, and a lot less confusion generally.

Thanks, Gayel --GayelKnott 18:01, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Hello Gayel Knott,

Thank you for your message of Friday, 4 december 2015. As for the comparing pages pertaining Jouck ... van Burmania and possible duplications the following.

I am trying to make a family tree of the family of my wife, Marijke Woudstra *Woerden 1936 as a member of the Frisian family Woudstra and their ancestors. These ancestors happened to belonged to the ranks of the registered Frisian nobilities. Other people have already done a lot of work on this subject because of the Frisian nobilities in the archives there is a lot of historical information available. A problem however is the fact that their name giving leads nowadays to the question which persons are really meant. These names consist of a given name and a surname. The given name for succeeding generations were repeating, while parallel family branches also used compareble given names. To a further discrimination, intermediate names were applied including the fathers given name as the second name but also the name of their living estate formed part of their formal name. However the WeRelate program presents on the screen only the first name and the last name omitting the intermediate names, which in particular where used for the person discrimination. I did read upon your suggestion the template information but I do not fully understand what is meant probably because I am not completely familiar with the English language on this subject. I did not succeed in presenting a template on my screen as you suggested to work with.

Last Thursday, 3 December 2015 I saved a cluster of pages related to (F) Jouck Riencks van Burmania *1478, daughter of (M) Rienck Upckes Hania van Burmania *1442 +1494 married 1478 to (F) Bauck Douwesdr van Burmania and Jouck Riencks married to Pybe Hessels van Haerda *1474. I think there are no duplicates with them.

I intend to save also a comparable cluster of pages related to (F) Jouck Tjaertsdr Hania van Burmania *Abt 1455 +29 July 1531 and subseqently married to: (1) (M) Pybe Pyters Mernstra van Haerda * Abt 1410 +1504 (2) (M) Laes Pybes Haerda *Abt 1450; relation with his mother! (F) Jouck Tjaertsdr Hania van Burmania *Abt 1455 (3) (M) Pybe Hessels van Haerda *1474 +1504 I shall try to avoid duplications.

Jouck Riencks van Burmania *1478 and Jouck Tjaertdr Hania van Burmania *Abt 1455 are two different persons. Pybe Hessels van Haerda *1474 was subsequently married to (1) (F) Jouck Riencks van Burmania *1478 and (2) (F) Abt 1495 Jouck Tjaertsdr Hania van Burmania *Abt 1455. I hope, that you understand my problem how to solve this complicated family relationship and how to make it fit in the WeRelate program.

My request to you is to annul the 'no merge' status of Pybe Hessels van Haerda and Jouck Tjaertsdr Hania van Burmania.

Gayel, it has become a long story but to make the situation clear to you (if it is now) I did need some more words.

With kind regards, Harry Jager--H.Jager 22:05, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Harry, for your explanation. I do understand that you are researching a difficult situation, where there are many people with the same name who are marrying others with the same names.

I can also understand your frustration with using the SpeculativeWife/SpeculativeHusband templates. The first time or two I used them, I had to read the instructions very carefully and go very slowly, just to make sure I had done the right thing. And I did make some mistakes along the way. Fortunately, with WeRelate, if you make a mistake, there are usually many ways to correct the mistake.

What I will do is try to add them in for you. That way you can see how it is done and copy the process in the future if you want.

Also, I will remove the "no merge" for you, but it is very easy to do. Just go to the page, click edit, and delete the "do not merge" statement, then save.

Hope this helps, and good luck with your research.

Gayel --GayelKnott 20:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I added a couple of Speculative templates for you, so you can see how they work. If you don't want to use the templates, and can still link person pages in the text section of the page. You can say something like: " May be the husband of [[Person:Wife Name (10)|Wife Name]]", where you put the Wife's Person page name and number after the first "[[" then add the "|" then add any text you want, then add the "]]". You would want to put a similar link on the wife's page. Then the two pages would be linked, and you could wait to create a Family Page until you know which husband and wife really belong together.

Just as an added suggestion, you do seem to have a lot of good source information. You might think about adding that to each page as you go, as well. If you want to add it as text, that would be better than not adding any source information. Or you could add it to the Talk page and then move it to the Person page when you are done with the research. And if you want to add it in Dutch (or any other language) rather than English, that would be good, too. Many of the pages for Dutch ancestors have sources entered in Dutch, not English.

Gayel --GayelKnott 22:04, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Another comment: You are correct that sometimes the computer sees duplicates when there are none, because of the way names are indexed. When you have created pages that you think are not duplicates, but the computer might not recognize the difference, you can add a Do Not Merge template.

The way to do that is to go to the "My Relate" menu at the top of any page, and click on duplicates. It will show you any pages the computer thinks are duplicates (24 hours after you have entered them).

Then I find the easiest thing to do is open another page on WeRelate, and go to the Admin Menu, and click on Compare Pages. Then copy and paste two of the possible duplicates into the Compare Family box, click the little box under both families. If they are not the same, click on "Not A Match", and the computer will enter a "Do Not Merge" on one of them.

I just compared Family:Pybe van Haerda and Jouck van Burmania (10) and Family:Pybe van Haerda and Jouck van Burmania (2), by the way. I wonder if Person:Jouck van Burmania (6) and Person:Jouck van Burmania (2) are the same person?

I know this is difficult research you are doing. It has to be hard for you to keep people sorted out, as well.

Gayel --GayelKnott 22:04, 8 December 2015 (UTC)