Family talk:John Rogers and Rachel Eastham (2)

From John Rogers and Mary Byrd (3): Possible Duplicate? [21 December 2013]

Could this be the same family as John Rogers and Mary Byrd (2), with a son named Byrd Rogers? --GayelKnott 18:03, 4 May 2013 (EDT)

Yes, based on family trees elsewhere, this is the same family - I have merged them.--DataAnalyst 15:40, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Do not merge this page with Family:Giles Rogers and Rachel Eastham (2).

Name of John's wife [8 January 2014]

Several family trees give Rachel Eastham as the wife of John Rogers, but others (and sometimes the same trees) say that Rachel Eastham was his mother (wife of Giles Rogers). According to the RootsWeb tree submitted by Tim Hopkins, the 1733 will of John Bates, Jr. mentions his god daughter Ann Rogers, "daughter of John and Rachell Rogers", as well as his loving friend John Rogers. Hopkins thinks this was a transcription error, suggesting that it should have read Giles and Rachell Rogers, but it appears more likely that while it was an error (possibly in the original will) it should have read John and Mary Rogers. If John Bates had known John Rogers from childhood, he probably knew John's mother better than his wife, and may have accidentally provided the mother's name. Rachel appears to have been alive in 1733 and may have been living with her son and daughter-in-law.--DataAnalyst 16:12, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Errors in wills are few and far between, being produced by, or at the direction, of first-hand participants, and reviewed by the courts. To simply state that something is a transcription error almost 300 years later should carry no weight, unless evidence is also presented, of which I see no mention made. In fact, the comment about Ann Rogers, not Ann Samuel, is actually evidence to the contrary, as such an error would simply not occur 20 years after a woman got married. Evidence might be, for example, a receipt to the executor signed by John and Mary Rogers, or a marriage record, or a deed at about that time where he and his wife Mary sell land, etc. Otherwise, objectivity requires making Rachel the probable wife. P.S. If there is an error, it is not in transcription, as the cited source has a picture of the original will which does actually says John and Rachell Rogers. --Jrich 15:37, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Wife of John Rogers [13 January 2014]

NOTE: The following text was moved from the Family Page to the Talk Page, to be part of longer conversation.--DataAnalyst 01:29, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The wife of John Rogers is probably not Mary Byrd. The important source on this issue appears to be an article, entitled "Some Recent Finds Regarding the Ancestry of General George Rogers Clark", by R. C. Ballard Thruston, "President of the Filson Club", and published in the Filson Club History Quarterly, Vol. IX, No. 1 (Jan 1935), pages 1-34. A reprint may be found on heritagequest.com if one has access.

Unfortunately, the article is full of phrases like "I have come to the conclusion", "I believe", "If my deductions are correct", "There is no question in our minds", "I am fully convinced", etc.

The article presents three candidates for wife of John Rogers:

• "most popular": Mary Byrd, daughter of Col. William Byrd of Westover and his wife Mary Horsemandnen.
• Mary Bird, daughter of William Bird, "an irascible Burgess" from K&Q County
• "least popular": Rachel, the daughter of a Mr. Eastham or Easom and his wife Mary Bird

Obviously, naming a son Byrd argues that Byrd was a surname relatively close in history, tending to favor one of the Mary Byrd/Birds.

The first is ruled out on the basis of age, assumed of "marriageable age" in 1698, i.e., at least 15, so too old to have children in 1737.

The second is not covered because all the evidence seems to argue for the "least popular" choice.

The evidence consists of two main pieces:

• A letter written 1 Jul 1856 by Lucy Robertson Semple [daughter of Donald Robertson and Rachel Rogers, m. John Walker Semple, per the text], a granddaughter of John Rogers, which claimed her grandmother was named Rachel Eastham, and that she was the daughter of a Mary Bird.
• The will of John Bates, Jr., dated 30 Dec 1733, recorded 19 Feb 1733/34, which names "my God daughter Ann Rogers (the daughter of John and Rachell Rogers)".

Some further evidence is given to show that John Rogers is involved in both the estate of a George Eastham 1748 and a Mary Eastham 1756.

Summary of Conclusions based on Official Records [13 January 2014]

Based on several official records, supported by a letter from a granddaughter of John Rogers, the following conclusions are suggested:

• John Rogers married Rachel Eastham, daughter of George and Mary (Bird) Eastham.
• Mary Bird was the daughter of Robert Bird of New Kent and King and Queen counties.

These conclusions (published between 1900 and 1981) appear to reflect the latest genealogical thinking on this family. They supersede a theory that arose in the mid-19th century that John Rogers married Mary Byrd, daughter of Col. William and Mary (Horsmanden) Byrd of Westover.

For details of the debunked theory and evidence for the more recent conclusions, see the section below titled "John Rogers and Mary Byrd: A Theory Debunked".--DataAnalyst 01:32, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

John Rogers and Mary Byrd: A Theory Debunked [26 June 2019]

It appears that by the middle of the 19th century^[1], some 75-80 years after the death of John Rogers and his wife, the knowledge of an ancestor named Mary Bird or Byrd^[2], “a sister of Colonel William Bird” ^[3], combined with some limited research, resulted in the theory that John Rogers married Mary Byrd, youngest child of Col. William and Mary (Horsmanden) Byrd of Westover, Virginia (whose son was another Col. William Byrd) ^[4]. The lack of evidence for the marriage of Col. Byrd’s daughter Mary to John Rogers^[5] was explained by proposing a break between Mary and her father, and eventually a romantic tale of this disinheritance was elaborated^[6], incorporating a probably true incident told by a grandson of John Rogers^[7].

This theory was contradicted in a letter from Lucy (Robertson) Semple, daughter of Rachel (Rogers) Robertson and granddaughter of John Rogers, written in 1856 and published by William Kyle Anderson in his 1900 book Donald Robertson and his wife Rachel Rogers of King and Queen County, Virginia. The letter (which Anderson had in his possession), stated “Grandfather, John Rogers, lived and died in King and Queen county. He married Rachel Eastham. She was daughter of Mary Bird, and that is the way Bird came into the family.” Nevertheless, the theory of John Rogers marrying Mary Byrd, daughter of Col. William Byrd of Westover, appears to have caught hold towards the end of the 19th century^[8] and shows up in books published from 1896^[9] to 1940^[10].

By 1911, the theory of Mary Byrd being the wife of John Rogers was combined with the knowledge of an ancestor named Rachel Eastham to produce the assertion that Rachel Eastham was the wife of Giles Rogers^[11] (since Mary Byrd’s mother was known to be Mary Horsmanden, there was nowhere else to place her in the two generations of Giles and John Rogers). This apparently was not the first time the idea had been put forward, as an 1848 letter asked whether Giles’ wife was named Esom/Eastham^[12]. As late as 1972, A Dictionary of Scottish Emigrants to the U.S.A. stated that Giles Rogers married Rachel Eastham^[13].

The 1922 book Kith and Kin by Mrs. John Russell Sampson not only reiterates the assertion that Giles married Rachel Eastham and John married Mary Byrd, daughter of Col. William Byrd of Westover^[14], but also claims that Col. John Cox Underwood, Lieutenant-Governor of Kentucky ‘found the records of Giles’ birth in Edinburgh, of his removal “back” to Worcester, of his marriage there to Rachel Eastham : [and] the proof [that Giles descended from John Rogers the Martyr]’ ^[15] and that ‘Miss Jessup, [a descendant of Giles Rogers], went to England and pursued an independent search with the same result’^[16]. This is in spite of the fact that Underwood’s own 1911 book, where he states that Giles ‘settled in Worcestershire, England; where he m. 1672, Rachael Eastham (pro. “E sam”)’ ^[17], provides neither the parish of the marriage nor any citation to support it. Underwood may have picked up the John/Mary and Giles/Rachel theory, and assigned a marriage year and place for the latter to coincide with other information he found out about Giles. He does not appear to claim that he actually found a marriage record for Giles and Rachel. Nor does Mrs. Sampson clarify what evidence Miss Jessup discovered – her search might have been focused on the evidence for Giles’ descent from John Rogers the Martyr, rather than his marriage.

It appears that the first serious attempt to debunk the theory that John Rogers married Mary Byrd, daughter of Col. William and Mary (Horsmanden) Byrd of Westover, was made by William Kyle Anderson, in his 1900 book Donald Robertson and his wife Rachel Rogers of King and Queen County, Virginia. Anderson provided the following evidence and arguments^[18]:

• Lucy (Robertson) Semple, granddaughter of John Rogers, stated in a letter that John Rogers married Rachel Eastham, daughter of Mary Bird^[19].
• The theory that John Rogers married Mary Byrd, daughter of Col. William and Mary (Horsmanden) Byrd of Westover, appears to have originated mid-19th century^[20].
• There is no evidence for this marriage, and evidence points to this Mary Byrd being too old to be the mother of John’s later children^[21].
• There is a plausible explanation for how the theory could have arisen, and an alternate solution for the fact on which it was likely based (that the Rogers had an ancestor named Mary Bird/Byrd, sister of Col. William Bird/Byrd).
• The alternate solution is based on the discovery of another Col. William Bird Col. who lived closer to the Rogers family than the Westover Byrds. This alternate solution places Mary Bird a generation too early to be the mother of John’s children^[22], supporting the statement made by Lucy (Robertson) Semple.
• The Rogers family, when it used the name Bird/Byrd, almost universally spelled it Bird (e.g., ‘John Rogers named one of his sons Bird, and this son always wrote his name this way.’ ^[23]). This supports the alternate solution.
• Additional arguments that are maybe less convincing.

The only hard evidence Anderson had was the letter in which Lucy (Robertson) Semple stated that John Rogers married Rachel Eastham, daughter of Mary Bird, yet even so, he found the John Rogers/Mary Byrd theory to be improbable^[24].

Additional evidence supporting Anderson’s conclusion was presented by R. C. Ballard Thruston, in his 1935 article “Some Recent Finds Regarding the Ancestry of General George Rogers Clark” and an appendix published later, both reprinted in Genealogies of Kentucky Families: From the Filson Club History Quarterly, 3: 251-86 (a reprint of the 1935 article can also be found on heritagequest.com if one has access). This evidence includes:

• The 'will of one John Bates, Jr., dated December 30, 1733, … [which includes] “I give and bequath unto my God daughter Ann Rogers (the daughter of John and Rachell Rogers) …” [and] “Lastly I do hereby Constitute and Appoint my loving friends John Rogers (of King & Queen County) and William Motley (of Essex County) to be my Executors …” '^[25]
• Two land deeds dated 18 May 1752 in Louisa County, Virginia from ‘John Rogers and Rachel, his wife, of Drysdale Parish in King and Queen County, Virginia’ – one to their son George Rogers and one to their daughter Lucy and her husband Samuel Redd.^[26]
• A record in Caroline County, Virginia, dated 10 Jun 1748: “Will of George Eastham presented & proved by Joh Rogers, Henry Samuel & Robert Goodlow.” ^[27]
• A record in Caroline County, Virginia, dated 10 Jun 1756: “On the motion of Robert Goodlow & John Rogers its Ordered they have Admr. of the Estate of Mary Eastham & ack. a bond for same.” ^[28]

Yet more evidence was added in a supplementary article by George Harrison Sanford King “Elizabeth (Wilson) Clark Richards (1700-1785): Paternal Grandmother of General George Rogers Clark”, appearing in Genealogies of Kentucky Families: From the Filson Club History Quarterly, 3:315-29.

• The 17 Jul 1694 will of Robert Bird of New Kent and King and Queen counties, in which he mentions his 4 children William, Robert, Anna and Mary, and bequeaths 300 acres of land in King and Queen county to his daughter Mary. ^[29]
• The King and Queen County rent roll of 1704 in which ‘George Eastham is listed with 300 acres of land’. ^[30]

The first two pieces of evidence from Thruston appear to be the only official records found that give the first name of John’s wife, and both say that her name was Rachel. The remaining evidence from Thruston and King, taken together with the 1856 letter from Lucy (Robertson) Semple, support the conclusion of both Thruston ^[31] and King ^[32] that Mary Bird married George Eastham. Combining all the evidence from official records together with the letter from Lucy (Robertson) Semple leads to the following conclusions:

• John Rogers married Rachel Eastham, daughter of George and Mary (Bird) Eastham.
• Mary Bird was the daughter of Robert Bird of New Kent and King and Queen counties.

Note: William Kyle Anderson cites an 1850 letter to Lucy (Robertson) Semple from her cousin Thomas Rogers which says “You say Mary Bird had three brothers Col. William Bird, Doctor Philip Bird, and Otway Bird; that she married a Mr. Eastham, …”^[33]. The finding of the will of Robert Bird seems to contradict the statement that Mary Bird had brothers Otway and Philip. There are 3 possible explanations:

• Lucy was mistaken (in the letter her cousin was responding to).
• Philip and Otway had died by 1694 and thus were not in their father’s will (but why would Lucy not have mentioned Robert Bird, a brother who did survive).
• Thomas Rogers misunderstood Lucy’s letter (mistaking the antecedent of a “she” or “her” for Mary Bird when it was meant to be someone else, and possibly adding the surname in his response when it was not in her letter).

Beyond these three possibilities (and the last seems a bit like grasping at straws), I can think of no explanation, but if the first was true, it warns of the wisdom of relying on the memory of someone many years after the event, and cautions about relying on Lucy’s other letter (written in 1856) as well. However, even without Lucy’s 1856 letter, the conclusions above are not unreasonable, as the involvement of John Rogers in the estates of George and Mary (Bird) Eastham provides at least a tenuous link between these generations.

References

1. ↑ Anderson, William Kyle. Donald Robertson and His Wife Rachel Rogers of King and Queen County, Virginia (1900), pp. 218-19
2. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 209
3. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 212
4. ↑ Donald Robertson, pp. 209, 212
5. ↑ It appears that there is evidence for the marriage of this Mary Byrd to James Duke, son of Col. Henry Duke, and that her brother William was on friendly terms with her and her husband (see page for Mary “Molly” Byrd in RootsWeb tree of Brenda Keck Reed).
6. ↑ Sampson, Mrs. John Russell. Kith and Kin (1922), pp. 43-45, the romantic tale not necessarily originating with this author
7. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 213
8. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 211
9. ↑ English, William Hayden. Conquest of the Country Northwest of the River Ohio, 1778-1783, and Life of Gen. George Rogers Clark (1896), 1:35
10. ↑ Barksdale, John Augustus. Barksdale Family History and Genealogy (with Collateral Lines) (1940), p. 415
11. ↑ Underwood, John Cox. Lineage of the Rogers Family, England (1911), p. 32
12. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 219
13. ↑ Whyte, Donald. Dictionary of Scottish Emigrants to the U.S.A. (1972), p. 378
14. ↑ Kith and Kin, pp. 42-43
15. ↑ Kith and Kin, p. 42
16. ↑ Kith and Kin, p. 43
17. ↑ Lineage of the Rogers Family, England, p.32
18. ↑ Donald Robertson, pp. 208-23
19. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 221
20. ↑ Donald Robertson, pp. 218-19
21. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 216
22. ↑ Donald Robertson, pp. 213-15
23. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 216
24. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 217
25. ↑ Dawson, Nelson L. Genealogies of Kentucky Families : From the Filson Club History Quarterly (1981), 3:268
26. ↑ Genealogies of Kentucky Families, 3:285-86
27. ↑ Genealogies of Kentucky Families, 3:272
28. ↑ Genealogies of Kentucky Families, 3:272
29. ↑ Genealogies of Kentucky Families, 3:325
30. ↑ Genealogies of Kentucky Families, 3:325
31. ↑ Genealogies of Kentucky Families, 3:251 and 3:286
32. ↑ Genealogies of Kentucky Families, 3:325
33. ↑ Donald Robertson, p. 220

If you look at the naming patterns for John and Rachel Eastham Roger's kids I think there is a good chance that Giles Roger's wife was named Lucy. Their 1st child, John, named after his father, 2nd child, Giles, named after paternal grandfather, 3rd child, George, named after maternal grandfather, 4th child, Mary, named after maternal grandmother, 5th child, Ann, named after an Aunt, 6th child, Lucy, named after ? My guess is Lucy was named after her paternal grandmother. The name Lucy was used over and over again in the proceeding generations.--Mickeycrimm 11:31, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Changes to Pages [14 January 2014]

I plan to change the WeRelate pages to match the conclusions given above (John married Rachel Eastham, daughter of George and Mary (Bird) Eastham; Mary was daughter of Robert Bird), over the next several days or weeks. If anyone has an objection, please reply here sooner rather than later (even just to say "stop until I can respond".) I probably won't start for a day or two. Thanks.--DataAnalyst 01:57, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Please do change the pages. The only place we may differ on this is that I think your argument is so well presented that it belongs on the main page. --GayelKnott 16:26, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I think it's excellent. Not that I'm really involved in this family. I think something, a note, a warning, whatever, needs to go on the main page, at a minimum because somebody merging a GEDCOM doesn't have access to the Talk page, and if people tend to believe the old myths, you know somebody in the future will load a GEDCOM that has the old version... --Jrich 16:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Thanks for the reminder about GEDCOM uploads and merging. I will do my best to put enough info on the main page (maybe the summary) to discourage errors - as well as on other pages, such as Giles Rogers, with links here.--DataAnalyst 23:39, 14 January 2014 (UTC)