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- NOTES BY ALISTER JOHN MARSH ("John", Christchurch, New Zealand, descendant of John Marsh born 1787) 14 JUNE 2012: The birth year, location, and parents of John Marsh are given differently on various trees.
BIRTH YEAR: The 1841 census only gives ages rounded to the nearest 10 years, so does not give an exact birth year. Later censuses do give actual ages, and from these it is inferred that this John Marsh was born in about the first 3 months of 1787.
PARENTS OF JOHN MARSH: Some trees show the parents of this John Marsh as Thomas Marsh born 1758 and Hannah Precious. This is however speculated, and not confirmed. Thomas and Hannah had a son John Marsh born in 1780, and that John lived to old age. It was not unknown for more than one son in a family to be given the same Christian name. This often occurred where a rigid naming convention was followed, (eg the first son named after the father's father, the second son named after the mother's father, or something similar, not sure of the exact details). There was a John Marsh born 1827 died 1789, who was an eldest son living at West Wratting, but had no sons, and he left his estate to his brother Thomas's son Thomas's son John. A possibility is that John born 1787 was named after his gt uncle, and as a result inherited his estate. This could account for the confusion about two sons being named John. It appears that there was no John Marsh baptised in West Wratting in 1787, or even in Weston Colville. Some claim that if two sons in a family had the same Christian name, sometimes the second son was not christened, which was in part a ploy to avoid christening fees. My view is that the parents of John Marsh are not proven at this time, and Thomas marsh & Hannah Precious are possibilities, not certainties. There are other possibilities, but no certainties.
BIRTH PLACE: The 1841 census gives West Wratting as the birth place, while later censuses give Weston Colville as the birth place. He lived at Weston Colville after his marriage in 1806. I presume the earlier census is more likely correct for birth place, and from DNA testing he does seem to descend from the Marsh family living at West Wratting by some means or other.
EARLY ORIGINS OF THIS MARSH FAMILY: A DNA study has shown John Marsh born 1787 is from the same direct male line Marsh family as West Wratting Marshes, and has similar Y-DNA to a John Marsh who died at West Wratting in 1611, and who was married to Elyn. Details of the Marsh Families DNA Project can be seen at http://www.kin.marshdna.com . This Marsh family Y-DNA line appears to go back in West Wratting under the surname of Marsh/ March and various spellings to the 1400s. There was a Simon de Merc (Marsh) who owned land at West Wratting in the 1100s, and it seems possible this was the same Marsh family owning land there in the 1300s. In the 1360s, the senior branch of this Marsh family ran out of male heirs, and estates passed on by daughters, including one daughter who married into a Brown family.
MARSH/ TYNDALL CONNECTION: Simon de Merc (Marsh) who owned land at West Wratting in the 1100s appears to very likely be from the de Merc/ de Marcq/ de Marisco family which came to England with William the Conqueror in 1066. The granddaughter of a Sir Stephen de Marisco from this Norman family from Marck near Calais in France married a de Coleville who was Lord of the Manor of Weston Colville about 1200, so the Norman family were definitely connected to this area. Weston Colville is about a mile from West Wratting. It appears however, from DNA information as known to date, that the Y-DNA of West Wratting Marshes from the 1500s onwards is not the same Y-DNA as the de Marcq family from France prior to 1066. It may be that West Wratting Marshes get their name from and descend from Simon de Merc, and the Norman de Marcq family, but they may not be direct male line descendants. The Marsh Families DNA Project has shown the West Wratting Marshes share the same Y-DNA as a de Tyndall family which owned estates in Northamptonshire and Norfolk in the 1200s, which coincidentally some were about 6 miles from estates of Sir Stephen de Marisco. This de Tyndall family descended on the male line from a Baron de Tyndall living in Northumberland in about 1100. It is possible that the West Wratting Marshes descend on the direct male line from a Baron de Tyndall living in about 1100. This is an inference taken from the DNA study, but much more genealogical and DNA research is needed to confirm if this correct. I was reluctant to mention this Tyndall connection before it is firmly corroborated, as these things tend to be accepted as fact prematurely. But it is at least a possibility being investigated by me and others.
MANY CAMBRIDGESHIRE/ SUFFOLK/ ESSEX/ NORFOLK/ LONDON/ YORKSHIRE/ SUSSEX MARSH FAMILIES RELATE TO JOHN MARSH BORN 1787: The DNA study has shown that Marsh families prior to 1800 from West Wratting, Linton, Weston Colville, Balsham, Brinkley, Bottisham, Carlton, Westerly Waterless, Fulbourn, Dullingham, Burwell, Cambridge City, Haverhill, London, Leyton, and many other areas share the same Y-DNA type, indicating direct male line relationship. It is possible that this Marsh family was wide spread before 1500, and if they descend from a Tyndall male, the Tyndall may have lived nearer to 1200 when the de Tyndalls moved into the Marsh ancestral area, and it was known the de Merc family were running out of male heirs. Today the direct male line descendants of this Marsh family are widely spread around the World, and are in Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands, USA, England, Scotland, Canada, and no doubt many other places.
Anyone with information about this Marsh family are invited to contact me at ajmarsh@arrrg.org
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