Talk:Reorganisatie Nederlandse bronnen

May I ask if the term Registers van de Burgerlijke Administratie is a WeRelate-construct or an official term used by the archives in the Netherlands? --Ekjansen 06:50, 29 August 2010 (EDT)

It is derived from the FHLC. WR gathered its source page titles/data from there. How the FHL came up with Burgerlijke Administratie is anybody's guess! Leo and I have had spirited discussions about how silly some of these titles look to a Dutch native :-)

If you click on a source such as the example Source:Aarlanderveen, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands. Registers Van de Burgerlijke Administratie, 1669-1811, and then under repositories click on the FHLC link, it will bring you to their catalog. Then from that page or from the View Film Notes link, you can see what the films contain. From what I can tell, the "Burgerlijke Administratie" is intended to be the pre-1811 B-M-D, more commonly referred to as DTB. --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:03, 29 August 2010 (EDT)

Klaas, je zult wel gemerkt hebben dat ze er van alles en nog wat onder vatten. Veelal dingen als schepenhuwelijken, gaarder, gequalificeerde, e.d. gr. Leo

Memories van Successie [3 February 2011]

These are not just for one gemeente. So it should be Town, Province, Netherlands.
The town was the place where the office was situated and were covering several gemeenten.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 13:05, 3 February 2011 (EST)

Thank you for the clarification. I'll edit this main page to reflect that. --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:12, 3 February 2011 (EST)

Bevolkingsregister [9 February 2011]

I started renaming the Bevolkingsregister for Friesland. I noticed that for some gemeente, there are 2 "Registers der bevolking". One looks to be the real Bevolkingsregister, and the other "New residents and removal" (see FamilySearch). Is this "Inwoners" source really separate from the main Bevolkingsregister, and if it is, what might be the proper title? --Jennifer (JBS66) 17:12, 8 February 2011 (EST)

I just may paste this Dutch text:

Naast het "basis"-bevolkingsregister waren er vaak ook andere registers zoals het dienstboderegister, gestichtenregister en het kazerneregister. Verder treft men bij de bevolkingsregisters hulpadministraties aan als chronologische registers van ingekomen en vertrokken personen en registers van verhuizingen binnen de gemeente. Ook registers met huisnummeringen en woningkaarten kunnen tot de hulpadministratie worden gerekend. In veel gevallen zijn dit soort registers tot ver in de 20e eeuw bijgehouden.

I my interpretation these are just lists to help the administration run better. I have the impression that not all municipalities do have all these extra lists. When available they are to be adjacent to the Bevolkingsregister. --Klaas (Ekjansen) 03:25, 9 February 2011 (EST)

That is helpful, thank you. Here is an example of how we might deal with these: Source:Dantumadeel, Friesland, Netherlands. Bevolkingsregister. There was a source page for the Mannelijke inwoners, 1826-1834, so I moved the FHLC link to the Dantumadeel Bevolkingsregister and deleted the other source. If people need to source something like that directly, a source could always be added again for that later. Does that sound like a good solution? --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:21, 9 February 2011 (EST)

I think this solution wil do.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 07:37, 9 February 2011 (EST)

Volkstelling [9 February 2011]

Do we need a page for each year of the Volkstelling like we have for the U.S. census or is a page like Source:Dantumadeel, Friesland, Netherlands. Volkstelling sufficient? --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:21, 9 February 2011 (EST)

I think this is a separate source. Only a few censusses are available (1829, 1839) and further on I don't know.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 07:38, 9 February 2011 (EST)

It is separate from the Bevolkingsregister, yes. This site lists 17 years the Volkstelling was taken. I can either do: Dantumadeel, Friesland, Netherlands. Volkstelling, 1795; Dantumadeel, Friesland, Netherlands. Volkstelling, 1829 etc... or I can just keep one page for all the years and call it Source:Dantumadeel, Friesland, Netherlands. Volkstelling. --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:45, 9 February 2011 (EST)

The census of 1795 is not part of the Burgerlijke Stand. The other censusses are. So I would think the 1795 should be separate.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 10:13, 9 February 2011 (EST)

Naamsaanneming [28 February 2011]

I renamed Source:Ferwerderadeel, Friesland, Netherlands. Naamsaanneming, but I don't want to get too far along citing this since I'm not really confident about the source title. Ferwerderadeel wasn't a gemeente until 1816 - so each place covered by the Friesland Naamsaanneming might need their own source page like: Source:Blija, Friesland, Netherlands. Naamsaanneming, Source:Ee, Friesland, Netherlands. Naamsaanneming, etc. I'm curious on your thoughts. --Jennifer (JBS66) 08:19, 28 February 2011 (EST)

In Friesland we had a special situation before 1811. The province was (since the time of the saxonians) divided in 30 grietenijen and 11 steden (towns) , after 1811 the grietenijen were divided in smaller gemeenten (the 11 towns were not involved) , but only a few years later the grietenijen were reinstituted and only from 1851 they were called gemeente. The naamsaanneming was on gemeente-level in 1811, also sometimes in 3 or 4 gemeenten per grietenij. Correct should the source be linked with the smaller gemeente but for the better overview I would make these gemeente a subcategory of the grietenij.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 08:43, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I didn't realize that the term gemeente wasn't used in Friesland until 1851! I see now where van der Aa says "griet. Ferwerderadeel" next to Blija... {sigh} how did I not notice this before... Thank you Klaas, this does help a lot! --Jennifer (JBS66) 09:11, 28 February 2011 (EST)

Stemkohieren, or special taxes in Friesland [15 March 2011]

The organisation of the taxes in Friesland differs from the other Dutch provinces. The following text will help:

Friesland Tax Records

Many kinds of tax records exist for the province of Friesland. They are valuable because they often identify individuals who lived many years before the church records begin. In the catalog these will be found under the town. For rural areas they will be listed under the district [grietenij], which was basically the same as the later municipality [gemeente].

There are five main record types:

• Floreenkohieren, 1700–1798. These are land tax records.
• Quotisatiekohieren, 1748. These records have been published. They give the man’s name, his occupation, and the number of family members over 12 years of age and those under 12.
• Reëlkohieren, 1711–1805. This land tax names owners and occupiers of land and houses.
• Speciekohieren, 1748–1805. These records contain taxes on people (head tax), chimneys, horses, cattle, and cultivated land. The importance of these records is that they state from where and to where people moved.
• Stemkohieren, 1640, 1698, 1708–1788. These are published lists that give the name of the landowner, renter or inhabitant, and neighbors.

[1]

--Klaas (Ekjansen) 14:05, 15 March 2011 (EDT)

This is quite helpful, thank you. WR does have sources for each of these - most are at the grietenij level, the Quotisatiekohieren is only for Friesland. I started renaming the Stemkohieren and adding Tresoar as a repository. All of the sources won't be renamed in a day... but it is really nice to have an outline of how they should look. I am learning a lot from this process! --Jennifer (JBS66) 14:45, 15 March 2011 (EDT)

Kerkelijke Registers [25 February 2012]

Do we want to track these to the specific church? When there are multiple churches in an area, is it obvious from the record which church it is from, so that the distinction is worth making? Is a list of all the churches in a province readily available? --Pkeegstra 14:15, 9 February 2012 (EST)

I've gone back-and-forth with this concept myself. I can see the benefit in keeping each individual pre-1811 source (church and civil). For Leeuwarden alone, that is at least 6 different source pages. The difficulty comes in using these sources easily. Trying to cite them from a Person/Family page is nearly impossible because there is no real information describing the source in the title (ie Source:Leeuwarden, Friesland, Netherlands. Kerkelijke Registers, 1581-1895). When Klaas and I discussed this yesterday, we used the analogy of the Burgerlijke Stand sources. Those too are a collection of books (birth, marriage, death) and when we cite the collection, we add which book it came from in the Source's Record Name field. I've found that new users quickly understand how these sources are arranged and how to cite them. Since the DTB sources are such a mess, users are not using the WR Sources to cite them.

I looked briefly at Tresoar, Drenlias, AlleGroningers, and Genlias. There is inconsistency - some do describe the specific church the record came from, and others only say something like DTB 140. Regarding a list of churches in a province, I don't personally know of a list. Klaas, perhaps you might know of a resource? --Jennifer (JBS66) 07:00, 10 February 2012 (EST)

Can we at least find a scheme which tracks church records and pre-1811 civil records separately? --Pkeegstra 10:19, 25 February 2012 (EST)

I have a book compiled by W. Wijnaendts van Resandt: Repertorium DTB. this includes the records of christenings, marriages and burials before the official registration started (1795/1811). This includes church- and civil registers. These are combined because all these registers where collected in 1811. No differentiation between church-records and civil records has been made.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 10:29, 25 February 2012 (EST)

OK. (Is that book readily available at used book shops?) --Pkeegstra 11:07, 25 February 2012 (EST)

Sources for New Gemeenten? [28 February 2012]

For completeness, do we want to defined Burgerlijke Stand sources for gemeenten created since 1962? We could note on the source pages when the first records would be expected to become available, assuming the present regulations remain in force. --Pkeegstra 10:18, 25 February 2012 (EST)

That does sound like a good idea. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:08, 28 February 2012 (EST)