Place talk:Worthenbury, Flintshire, Wales


Duplicate place [1 May 2011]

Hello Honnyng, I noticed that you indicated this place is a duplicate of Place:Worthenbury, Wrexham, Wales. Which page title best follows the guidelines under Place:Wales#How places in Wales are organized? I'm trying to determine which version I should redirect to. Thank you, --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:20, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

Jennifer - thanks for this. It seems that the village of Worthenbury has had about the most complex history of county ownership I've come across. If following the WP protocol "The standard at WeRelate is to title Wales place pages according to their historic county when the historic county is known, with also-located-in links to preserved counties and principal areas when they are known." then Flintshire is probably the best title, with the modern "Wrexham County Borough" as an also-located-in link. Hope this helps!
Over the years Worthenbury has been in:-
  • c 1150 in Maelor
  • 1283 became Maelor Saesneg - the 'English' part of Maelor
  • 1397 Maelor Saesneg was merged with the County Palatine of Chester to form the Principality of Chester.
  • 1536 the area was included in the newly-created county of Flintshire, as an 'exclave' (ie separate portion of the county)
  • 1974 to 1996: Wrexham Maelor district of county Clwyd
  • 1996 to present day Wrexham County Borough
Honnyng 19:57, 1 May 2011 (EDT)

Thank you for your detailed explanation! I do agree, based upon this, that Place:Worthenbury, Flintshire, Wales would be the better title. I moved the text from the other page, but there is one more small issue. I can't redirect the Worthenbury, Wrexham page until we figure out what to do with Place:Emral, Worthenbury, Wrexham, Wales (since it is a contained place). I could rename it to Emral, Worthenbury, Flintshire, Wales - however, I am wondering if it is a valid place page according to WR convention. Place pages are allowed down to the town level (cemeteries are also included). Other physical locations (such as churches) are not allowed. That information is added to the description field of a person or family page. If Emal was not a town, but a family estate, then we may need to delete the page. --Jennifer (JBS66) 20:19, 1 May 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for this Jennifer. Big estates like Emral are for sure populated places - with multiple different families and perhaps, at their peak, many hundreds of people. But they are not really villages or hamlets; nor simply just a house address. In the Help page for places it says "Pages can be created for populated places (cities, towns, etc.), both current and historic", while the list for 'type' of places includes 'inhabited place'. The Topographical dictionary of Wales has it as a place Emral. for example - but if these large estates are not to be considered places in their own right as a matter of WP policy, then a few others fall into that class as well, for example:-
If the Emral estate is to be removed, then reference to it could be added to the Surname:Puleston page, as the primary family owning it. Honnyng 03:45, 7 May 2011 (EDT)