Place talk:Hoogezand-Sappemeer, Groningen, Netherlands

Should we create two new pages for this town? [12 March 2009]

Leo, thank you for your comment that this town was combined in 1949. That brings up a question. For Friesland, I was titling Place Pages as they were around the year 1900. So, should we have a place page Hoogezand, Groningen, Netherlands and another Sappemeer, Groningen, Netherlands? Also, is there another hierarchy level that should be added - like a gemeente? I think I am opening up a can of worms - as they say!--Jennifer (JBS66) 09:35, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

Well hello Jennifer, I am amazed, you always seem to be at work! You monitor half the world......and, yes, true, we need them to be apart. Both small towns date from the first quarter of the 17th century and remained separate for some 325 years. Then fused. So: my grandfather was born in Hoogezand, but was buried in Hoogezand-Sappemeer. Should that make three pages? Prior and after 1949? After all, a new name replaced two former ones. Just to open the can a bit further....... It is a 'gemeente' [= municipality]; all independent places always are in terms of administrative law (which goes back to the French empire). Terms like dorp or stad do not legally exist any more; they are ancient manners of speech, dependant on size. Yours, Leo--Leo Bijl 13:13, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

I have to give some thought as to how to go about this. I do have a question about gemeente. I see it's translated as municipality, but in Friesland doesn't it mean a general district under a province that contains villages? In titling the Friesland pages, I followed a structure like this: Place:Augustinusga, Achtkarspelen, Friesland, Netherlands. Augustinguga (village), Achtkarspelen (gemeente), Friesland (province), Netherlands (country).

But, when I look at this source: Source:Kuyper, Jacob. Gemeente-atlas van Nederland, while Friesland is divided into what I call gemeenten(?) (Achtkarspelen, Dantumadeel, Ferwerderadeel, etc), it appears that Gronigen is not. So, would the structure for the province of Gronigen be: Village, Gronigen, Netherlands? If so, then we would not need to add any other levels to the title.--Jennifer (JBS66) 07:19, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Hello Jennifer, it is less complicated than it seems.

We know three administrative layers: 1. the State, central government 2. the province, provincie, as you know 3. the gemeente, as you know as well

The gemeenten as the category as we know it today, came into being with the Gemeentewet (wet=law) of 1851 under Thorbecke. The concept as such being French. That was the end to all judicial differences between cities and villages (remnants of Ancien Regime, so to speak).

The provinces up north the country are not that densely populated, so: between what people call villages, there can be miles of open grazing lands or waters. That is why they call them villages. Just a matter of 'feeling'; in my hometown Rotterdam, a tightly build city of near to 600.000 people, where you don't notice the difference, we would just think of them as neighbourhoods.

The gemeente is the basic administrative layer; the independent unit or entity, or what you want to call it, with the burgemeester - the mayor- and the council.

So, for example: The Registrar of the gemeente Hoogezand, 1885, etc etc: ....the bride living in Kropswolde, gemeente Hoogezand. etc etc. One would therefore never see such a phrase as: The Registrar of the city of Rotterdam, etc, but always gemeente (give or take exceptions from the early years of the burgerlijke stand, the system took time to crystallize).

yours again, Leo

ps. I have never explained this in a foreign language before, is it in anyway however remotely clear? What makes it somewhat confusing is, that in daily speech, we always talk of "steden en dorpen". Just ask.--Leo Bijl 09:21, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Thank you so much, you have explained this wonderfully! You know, when I look at an early map of Hoogezand, it reminds me of the Seigneurial system you find in Québec, Canada. That now makes sense considering both systems were French influenced.

So, I now understand that, administratively, Hoogezand and Sappemeer are equal to Ferwerderadeel or Dantumadeel. Using your example of Kropswolde, would one then create a page for the village Place:Kropswolde, Hoogezand, Groningen, Netherlands, or is this too complicated?

Thank you for your patience with me!--Jennifer (JBS66) 10:20, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Exactly, that is the idea. I did a bit of an experiment on two small settlements that today are part of Rotterdam (simple ones to give it a try):[1][2]. I'll see what I can do to help our Encyclopedia progress; and I will study that seigneurie a bit further: bear in mind that the plots of land as you see them on the map of Hoogezand were not granted by the king. Lovely picture btw......and my grandfater was born there. Leo--Leo Bijl 02:09, 10 March 2009 (EDT)

I like you additions to the Overschie and Cool pages - and the photographs are beautiful. That is something that I loved when we visited Europe (England and Paris) - were the cobblestone streets and the respect for the incredible architecture. You also did the right thing in listing Overschie as Also Located in Rotterdam. When you do it that way, Overschie will be listed on both the Zuid-Holland and the Rotterdam pages as Contained in places. Just an FYI, we also have another way to view places: [3]. It refreshes daily, and sometimes this view can be helpful.

On place pages, there is also a field called See also. One example of its use is here: Place:Oostdongeradeel, Friesland, Netherlands. Since Oostdongeradeel was never located within Dongeradeel, but instead merged with other municipalities to form Dongeradeel, we list Dongeradeel as a See also place. Goodness, this is a challenge to explain - and I'm even doing it in my native language! Dallan put it pretty well on another page when he said "the question to ask is does "Oostdongeradeel, Dongeradeel, Friesland, Netherlands" make sense? If it does, then list Dongeradeel as an also-located-in place for Oostdongeradeel. Otherwise list it as a see-also place."

I have a question about the title of the Cool page (what a neat name for a town!) Since it was a part of Rotterdam around that magic year of reference - 1900 - I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to title it: Cool, Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands? Also, is it possible for you to locate the coordinates for Cool (Acme Mapper is very good, because you can move around the map and it will show you the coordinates for the place under the + ). I tried to do this, but I can't figure out where it is in Rotterdam! I'll work on adding the coordinates for some of the other towns in Zuid-Holland.

Thank you for all your additions to these pages!--Jennifer (JBS66) 08:32, 10 March 2009 (EDT)

Hello Jennifer, here I am again. You did perfectly well with Hoogezand, etc. The above (the "also-case") is quite clear. I "magically" renamed Cool and left a message for you over there (or is that one word?) Leo--Leo Bijl 03:53, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

New Pages Created [10 March 2009]

I looked back at what I had done for the pages in Friesland, in order to figure out what to do with this merged municipality. I decided to make a few new pages, and keep this Hoogezand-Sappemeer one as well.

• Place:Hoogezand, Groningen, Netherlands
• Place:Sappemeer, Groningen, Netherlands
• Place:Kropswolde, Hoogezand, Groningen, Netherlands.

It will take a few hours for the system to refresh. After that, you will be able to use the new municipalities on your person/family pages. Please feel free to edit anything on these pages. I also did not put a place type for Kropswolde, as I was unsure about that.--Jennifer (JBS66) 11:41, 10 March 2009 (EDT)