Person talk:William Hays (39)

William Hays - Son of John Hays (21)? [24 June 2014]

There is no clear, irrefutable evidence that my 4th GGF, William Hays, is the son of Person:John Hays (21) of Hays Creek in present-day Rockbridge Co., Virginia, who inherited land on the Roanoke River from his father and the original emigrant Person:John Hays (20). The following circumstantial evidence has been used to support this theory by some HAYS researchers.

1. As a young man of 21-24 years of age, William pays for a land survey of 224 acres. This would be a considerable sum of money for someone of his age -- barely of legal age to own property. This fact indicates that William likely came from a family of means and connections. It's unlikely that he would have been a self-made man at this age.

2. Almost a year before William's survey, a John Hays, surveys his own plot of land in March 1774. William's land is very near John's, if not adjacent to it. In some militia and court records this John Hays is referred to as "John Hays Junior" possibly implying that John is the son of another John Hays. It must be noted that during this time the moniker of Junior may just mean that another older John Hays lived in the same area and was used to distinguish one from the other whether related or not.

This John Hays is somewhat older than William -- estimated birth year for John is 1745. John is the Captain of Virginia militia on the North Fork of the Holston and he promotes William as his 1st Lieutenant in March 1782. William is promoted to the Captain of the same company in the place of John Hays who removed out of the area (presumably Tennessee). A family relationship is implied between John and William. It's not possible that John is William's father due to age difference. They are likely brothers but could also be cousins.

3. A William Richison (sic) Richardson, whose nickname was Buckeye Billy, had a survey completed on March 1775 which shared a boundary with William Hays' land and was also near John Hays' survey. Buckeye Billy married a Rebecca Hays who's birth year is given as 1746 in Richardson family records (I believe from the Richardson family cemetery?).

4. My YDNA tests closely match other HAYS families who all trace their lineage back to one of two HAYS men: John Hays:20, the original emigrant who settled into the Borden Grant and Patrick Hays who settled into the Beverley Manor Grant.

We know from the LW&T of John Hays:20 that he has grandchildren named John Hays, Jr. and Rebecca Hays who are the children of his son, John Hays. These facts, combined with the DNA evidence, is the basis for the connection. It's quite possible; however, that William was a descendant of one of Patrick Hays' sons. None of William's male children were named John which may or may not be significant.

--motohays 21:38, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Quolla6 [24 June 2014]

Thank you for cleaning up my entry on William and adding the map of the Clinch and Holston river valleys. By the way, do you and/or Delijim have any informal network of researchers in Virginia or other states? Do you have a way to gather court records?

Thanks, --motohays 21:37, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Elizabeth's Marriage Date? [25 June 2014]

Quolla6, did you add the approximate marriage date as 1778? I'm curious whether you found some evidence to support that date or whether you added 18 years to her birth to produce the estimate. There is a possibility that she had children as early as 1775 with William.--motohays 00:06, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

The principle that DeliJim and I use here is that a date is provisional unless its documented with an original source. Generally "provisional" dates come from someplace (like family trees) that are wholly unsupported with documentary evidence, but are at least reasonable. Of course, if there's a solid original source documentation for the date, we use that---assuming we know it. Short of original source documentation, if there's a rationale for justifying a particular date, I usually develop an explanation (such as the one you provided) and insert that in the "note" field for the date. In this case, I've not worked with this long enough to justify an explanation of any sort. If you have a rationale for a date, older, younger, the same as, or whatever, putting that in the note field would be a good thing. "Wisdom lies in the council of many". Q 00:16, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Note [26 June 2014]

Direct evidence that William was the son of John Hays (20) is lacking. John (20) did have a son William but so did his presumed brother, Patrick. In January 1760/61 Patricks son William was apprenticed to William Wilson to learn the trade. This would have been an appropriate age for William son of Patrick to enter Apprenticeship, and consistent with the speculative DOB of William Hays (39). The period of apprenticeship was 18 years, which term would have expired in 1778. If this record is for William (39) he would have had 3 years to go on the apprenticeship. Eighteen years seems like a long apprenticeship, but that is apparently what was agreed to.

60 1760 Page 437.--12th January, 1760. Deed of apprenticeship--William Hays, son of Patrick Hays, binds himself to William Wilson, taylor, to be taught the said trade, service and occupation of a taylor for 18 years. Signed, Patrick Hays, William Wilson. Teste: James Stevenson, James Hughes, Wm Lusk.

Note on the Note [26 June 2014]

I think we might be getting into a common issue with the HAYS clan in that there are too many Johns to easily keep track of them. Care must be taken to correctly sort and collate these Johns :-) There is no evidence whatsoever that William was son of John Hays (20). The statement that the original emigrant John Hays (20) had a son named William is not supported by any documents or other evidence that I've seen. I believe John Hays (20) did not have a son named William.

The theory, and it's only a theory based on the circumstantial evidence provided in the Talk page for this William, is that John Hays (20) is the grandfather of this William. The quick summary is that there is a John Hays, Jr. (34?), [who would technically be the Third (III)], a Rebecca Hays (3) and this William Hays that all live as neighbors in the Rich Valley on the Holston River with John and Rebecca (3) who are the correct age to be the "nephews" (ie. grandchildren) named in the LW&T of the elder John Hays (20). According to the said theory, John Hays (21) is the son of John Hays (20) and the father of this William, John (34) and Rebecca (3) among others.

Patrick, the possible brother of John Hays (20), had a son named William who is too old to be this William. These are two different Williams. Here are a couple of paragraphs from a professional genealogist from the Wythe County Genealogical and Historical Society.

"In Chalkley's The Scotch-Irish Settlement of Virginia, I found wills or mentions of 5 men name Hays who had children:

Moses Hays died 1786, name a son William. In 1813, a William Hays of Pendleton County brought suit concerning the estate of Moses Hays; since this William was in Pendleton County, I have ruled him out as your William.

James Hays died in 1810 in Augusta County; will named a son William.

John Hays died December 1750, had a wife Rebecca, sons Andrew, Charles, and John. No son William; however, his children would have adults at this time.

David Hays died 1775 in Augusta County; named a son William.

Patrick Hays had a son William who apprenticed himself to learn the trade of being a tailor. I believe this William was too old to be yours.

That leaves James Hays, David Hays and a possible grandchild of John Hays and wife Rebecca that could be the parent/parents of your William. Or it could be none of them. At this point, I have not found any documents to prove or disprove."

This research was completed almost 3 years ago and much has been learned since then which I hope to eventually update on WeRelate. Since this first report, I completed the YDNA testing which ties be into the family group of John and Patrick Hays.

Usually, when I find something interesting, or at least something that might be useful in some way, I'll add it as a note in the main article. That way as information comes to hand it can be compared and evaluated---and then either carried forward to be incorporated in the article, or rejected. That's what's going on with this particular note about William the apprentice. From my perspective, it doesn't much matter who this William turns out to be. I'd like to identify him, and create a card for him. It may turn out that this is the only record we have for him, and he can never be accurately set into his proper family context. Or maybe something will click sometime, and his identity will be revealed. Leaving a breadcrumb here is mostly a way to keep this interesting bit of information in mind in the future.

As to the age of this child, in 1760 he was probably under the age of ten. WHich would seem to be appropriately aged to be the son of John. Patrick I've not yet explored enough to have an opinion.

At the moment I'm doing a comprehensive review of the Hays records in Chalkley's. That's a minimum of 540+ person-records. When that's completed I'll add information where appropriate. At the moment, there are only a few records that appear to be from family lines independent of the Patrick and John. lineages ---arbitrarily, I've started calling them the Hays Creek lines. There are a few lines that I think are not descended directly from these two, but from kinsmen, and fall under the Hays Creek umbrella. (There is at least one line that appears to be wholly unrelated.) YDNA STR data would be sufficient to show relatedness within the Hays Creek lineage, but won't have the resolution needed, I think, to tell which ancestor someone actually descends from. MIght be able to use SNP testing to get there (eventually), but I think that's a long ways away.----Q 20:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)