Person talk:Penelope Prince (2)

See my page for Penelope Prince (1).

I've done a lot of research on Penelope Prince. You might be interested in taking a look at the page for Penelope Prince (1).


Data are impossible [19 April 2011]

Penelope born 1644, married 1644 children from 1641 through 1760. This combination of people and data is really sensational, even in case one date should be correct it will be impossible to locate it. This record should be removed.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 04:34, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

Feel free to edit as you see fit. This isn't my data at all, I'm just working on combining all the off shoots of the same person to ultimately edit down to one page / person--Feenerty 12:55, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

Family:Richard Stout and Penelope Van Princin (1) and Family:Richard Stout and Penelope Prince (1) appear to be duplicates. The goal here on WR is one page per person, though sometimes when merging it can get worse before it gets better. My hope is that people familiar with this family can tackle this merge along with the required cleanup and sourcing. If any watcher needs help with the logistics of merging, feel free to post and I can lend a hand. --Jennifer (JBS66) 13:15, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

Snippets of information... [19 April 2011]

  • "Penelope Van Princes was born at Amsterdam Holland about 1602; her father's name was Van Princes; she and her first husband (whose name is not known) sailed for New York (then New Amsterdam) about the year 1620." William Bowne, of Yorkshire, England and his descendants, Miller K. Reading, 1903, pg. 8
  • "In 1622, Penelope Thomson was born in Amsterdam, Holland. Her mother was Dutch and her father was an English minister who fled from Britain to escape religious persecution. Penelope eventually grew up and married a fellow Dutchman, Kent Van Princes."
  • "Van Princess, Penelope (widow) and Richard Stout, 1663, New York City" American marriage records before 1699, William Montgomery Clemens, 1926, pg 220
  • "There is little on record of Kent van Princes, except that he was about his wife's [Penelope] age, and the two were married in Amsterdam in 1642" Four women in a violent time: Anne Hutchinson (1591-1643) Mary Dyer (1591?-1660) Lady Deborah Moody (1600-1659) Penelope Stout (1622-1732), Deborah Crawford, 1970--Jennifer (JBS66) 07:02, 19 April 2011 (EDT)
  • Informative book: Stout, Claude D. Richard and Penelope Stout : a critical analysis of an important period in American history. Palmyra, Wis.: Tom's Print Shop, 1974, 50 pgs. available at Heritage Quest

Penelope [19 April 2011]

Text below copied from response on User:JBS66

I am swamped with a number of things right now and don't have time to fully attend to this, but at some point I would hope to be able to turn my attention to this question about the identity of the person that you are merging into files for Penelope Kent.

I don't have that time right now but let me try to do my best to save you a little time and others a little headache and suggest that there is no historical basis whatso-absolutely ever for merging all of these files into Penelope Kent but that there is a better reason for merging them into Penelope Prince.

Again, at some point I will try to source this better for you and everyone, but for now and off the top of my head this is the best I can do. I'm not suggesting that you HAVE to do this until then but I'll let you decide.

After many years (approximately 10) of obsessive research about the identity of the person known in legend as Penelope Van Princis/Van Princess/Kent and Thomson before deciding that I needed to get on with actual life on this here Earth, it is my strong opinion that her name was Penelope Prince; that she was English, that she came to Kent Island (note, "Kent" Island) in the Chesapeake under indenture by Robert Vaughan (note the similarily in pronunciation to the "Van" in one version of the legends about her; that she was the same Penelope Prince whom Robert Vaughan testified in court records in about 1656 and who ran away from her indenture in 1646-7 or so during the time of troubles on Kent Island; that she was working out her indenture in the service of William Cox and his wife Frances on Kent Island and that they lived near Richard Thompson/Thomson (note the "Thompson/Thomson" in some versions of her name) on Kent Island who was involved in a big old major way in the "Time of Troubles" that led to her running away; that another version of her surname that pops up in some versions is "Lent" and there was a man named "Lent" living on Kent Island and who figured in that "Time of Troubles." It is also very possible (though by no means proven) that she was the Penelope Prince who was born in 1629 in Stepney and baptized at St. Dunstan's.

Penelope Prince ran away from Kent Island in 1646-7 (according to the testimony of Robert Vaughan); the Penelope who marries Richard Stout appears in the historical record as "Penelope Prince" in 1648 on Gravesend in Long Island. It is an educated guess on my part, and based on extraordinarily strong circumstantial evidence contained in the legends about her, that the Penelope Prince who married Richard Stout is the same person who was the Penelope Prince living on Kent Island from 1644-6.

Take this and run with it or ignore it, I don't much care at this point, but anyone who wants to see this for themselves can look at Filby's at the entry for Penelope Prince which references the court testimony of Robert Vaughan in 1656, and read about the history of Kent Island during the time of troubles with William Claiborne, and read the various versions of the legends of Penelope Van Princess in all of those old histories of New Jersey, and consider how it is that legends take shape over time and names become misunderstood, and begin to understand how it might be that those who wrote down the stories of Penelope Prince many years after her death might have misunderstood how a young English girl on "Kent" Island in the 1640's, who was brought to the island by Robert "Vaughan," and who ran away during a war in which her neighbor Richard "Thompson" figured prominently as did her neighbor "_____ Lent," and might have merged all of these names into hers in print, making it almost impossible to determine her identity without careful consideration.

At another time I will try to explain all of this and source it better, including why I believe there is a strong chance that she was the same Penelope Prince born in England, but at least for now I offer you Filby's for Penelope Prince and the Gravesend Town Records for someone of the same name. And for whatever it's worth, the records of St. Dunstan's in the East where Penelope Prince was baptized in 1629, the child of Mary Kilburn and Lawrence Prince. (unsigned User:Norajames).--Jennifer (JBS66) 13:56, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

What has been merged right now? [30 October 2012]

Penelope Kent has been born depending on 'source' in a range of 1622-1644. Married in 1644 or 1645, had 6 children born in 1641, totally 16 born up to 1668/9. and died 1732. This makes no sense at all.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 09:39, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

The name of this woman was Penelope Prince. She was born in London in 1629. In 1644 she came to Kent Island in the Chesapeake as an indentured servant to the Cox family of Kent Island. Her passage was paid by Robert Vaughan and you can find a record in the archives of Maryland for Penelope Prince (and an index listing for this in Filby's. In 1646 she (Penelope Prince) ran away and this too is in the historical records of Maryland. In 1648 she appears in the records of Gravesend as Penelope Prince and within few years or so she (Penelope PRINCE) marries Richard Stout.

There was no Penelope Kent.

Someone please restore this record. Her name was Penelope Prince.--Norajames 09:50, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

I've done a lot of research on Penelope Prince. You might be interested in taking a look at the page for Penelope Prince (1).

I've done a lot of research on Penelope Prince. You might be interested in taking a look at the page for Penelope Prince (1).

I really messed up and I'm sorry about this. Someone has made a subsequent merge before I could undo what I did. I'm working on solving it. My apologies. Jillaine 17:06, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

FYI: the reason these profiles were merged was because at least one of the children had duplicate parents; that's how the profiles ended up on the to-be-merged list. Jillaine 17:13, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

Jennifer and I had a comminication about Penelope. We decided for a correction on several points (at least 7). Jennifer not only made the corrections, but also did additional research. She also worked through the next generation. Thank you Jennifer.--Klaas (Ekjansen) 17:14, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

A Summary of What's Known about Penelope [5 June 2013]

Penelope is my 9th great grandmother and her story is quite controversial.

Penelope (whose maiden name was possibly Kent or Lent or Thompson or Thomson or vanPrincis or vanPrinces or vanPrincen or vanPrincess or van Prince or van Printzen) was born probably in the 1620s in either England or Holland to parents who were either English or Dutch. Rumors suggest her father was a minister. In the 1640s at approximately 20 years of age, Penelope married either an Englishman or a Dutchman (whose name was probably Kent or Prince or vanPrince or vanPrincis or vanPrinces or vanPrincess or van Prince or van Printzen) probably in Amsterdam. Soon thereafter they sailed on a ship (name unknown) from Amsterdam to the Dutch West Indies colony of New Amsterdam possibly by way of the Caribbean island of Curacao.

Or perhaps she was the indentured servant who ranaway from Kent Island, Maryland in 1646 during the "times of troubles."

Sometime in the 1640s somewhere in the Sandy Hook area of Raritan Bay (in what is now Monmouth County, NJ), Penelope’s ship (which might have the Kath/Kat/Cat/Cath which sank in 1648, returning from Curacao with a cargo of salt) ran aground or capsized in a storm or sank. Everyone except Penelope perished in the incident or else everyone except Penelope was killed by Indians after surviving the wreck or else everyone safely made it to shore except Penelope’s husband who was either injured in the wreck or had been sick on the voyage. If other passengers and crew survived the incident, they hiked to New Amsterdam, but Penelope refused to abandon her husband, who was too sick or injured to travel.

After the wreck, Indians attacked whoever was still there on the beach. If Penelope’s husband survived the wreck, the Indians killed him. The Indians mutilated Penelope (head injury and/or shoulder injury and/or partially disemboweled and/or scalped), and left her for dead. She managed to crawl into a hollow log or tree for protection and survived on the fungus growing on the rotten wood.

Later (perhaps a week), one or two or three Indians possibly with a dog were on the beach. Possibly they wounded a deer, which ran by Penelope’s log/tree with an arrow sticking out of it. Penelope called to the Indians to put her out of her misery. The young Indian (assuming there were two) was anxious to do so, but the older one prevailed. The older Indian carried the wounded white woman to his village near where the town of Middletown now stands. She recovered from her injuries.

Either Penelope lived with the Indians for many years, or else she escaped in a canoe, or else white men heard of her presence and rescued her, or else the old Indian delivered her to New Amsterdam for a ransom.

On 12 Sep 1648 (our only reliable date) in Gravesend, Long Island, colony of New Netherland, Pennellopy Prince testified in a slander trial about one woman milking another woman’s cow.

Penelope married Richard Stout, an early settler of Gravesend (on Long Island near Coney Island), who may have been 40 years old when they married in the 1640s (probably between 1642 and 1648). Richard was likely from Nottinghamshire, England, likely left home after an argument with his father possibly about a woman his father deemed unsuitable, and served in the English navy (possibly involuntarily) for probably seven years before being discharged in America (probably in New Amsterdam) about 1642. "Octoberr 13th, 1643, Richard Aestin, Ambrose Love [London?] and Richard Stout made declarations that the crew of the Seven Stars and of the privateer landed at the farm of Anthony Jansen, of Salee, in the Bay, and took off 200 pumpkins, and would have carried away a lot of hogs from Coney Island had they not learned that they belonged to Lady Moody." Penelope and Richard Stout had 10 children who lived to maturity and populated New Jersey.

At some point after marriage and by 1666 at the latest, Penelope and Richard left Gravesend and (with other settlers) founded the town of Middletown, NJ, near where the old Indian’s village was. At some point while she had young children (probably near Middletown but possibly in Gravesend), the old Indian warned Penelope that other Indians planned to attack her settlement. She could not persuade her husband of the truth, so she took the children away in a canoe (possibly provided by the old Indian). At her departure, her husband decided to be prudent, gathered the other settlers, and thwarted the attack before it occurred. Thereafter, the Indians and settlers lived in peace.

Richard Stout died as an old man (probably around age 90), his will being probated in 1705. Penelope died probably between 1712 and 1732 at an old age, which some claim was 110 years, at which time she had 502 descendants. She was buried somewhere in the Middletown area. Her numerous descendants recounted her adventures to their numerous descendants.

Penelope told her great grandson John Stout to reach into her apron pocket and feel her abdominal scar. John told this story to his granddaughter Helena Hoff, who told her granddaughter Therese Walling.--Jimmcfarlane 14:24, 4 June 2013 (EDT)

So any individual fact you list for Penelope (except that she married Richard Stout and had 10 children) will be objected to by some of her descendants, who will prefer one of the many alternatives.

Middletown is in Monmouth County not Morris [6 June 2013]

The Burial place of Penelope is shown as "Middletown, New Jersey, Family Estate" Following that link brings us to a stub stating that Middletown is in Morris, New Jersey, United States. This is incorrect. Middletown is in Monmouth county. I live in Middletown, not too far from Penelope lane. This should be corrected. Thanks --Lbeaumont 18:15, 5 June 2013 (EDT)

I fixed the link for Penelope's burial to point to Middletown in Monmouth county instead of Morris county. I kept the place page for Middletown in Morris county because Histopolis indicates this is a place in Rockaway Township. --Jennifer (JBS66) 00:45, 6 June 2013 (EDT)