User talk:Pat rayburn

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how this website works [22 July 2014]

There are several conventions at this website that you might not be aware of. I was hoping some of the changes I made might alert you to them.

• Dates are given with 3 letter month abbreviations, i.e., 1 Dec 1825, not 1 December 1825. See Help:Date Conventions.
• Women's names are given as their maiden name, so Sarah E. Spalding, not Sarah E. Spalding-Dow. Likewise, if there are records for people under two names, then those are alternate names and do not go into the primary name field. However, the system is smart enough to recognize common alternates, for example, Spaulding and Spalding, and in those cases, alternates are not really needed either.
• There is a collection of source pages that should be cited. It helps readers know exactly what source you mean, gives them tips for finding it, and provides a centralized place where the merits of the source can be discussed. So, Source:Fairbanks, Lorenzo Sayles. Genealogy of the Fairbanks Family in America, 1633-1897, not "Information taken from 'Genealogy of the Fairbanks Family in america 1633-1897'".
• Ancestry Trees in their various forms (public trees, one world tree), Ancestral Files (AFNs), WFT, GED files, FTW files, and these kind of sources, tend to be somewhat discouraged, because they are not verifiable sources. They generally do not tell how-they-know what they are saying. There is a lot of information on good source practice at Help:Sources or this page and its connected pages.

Thank you. --Jrich 03:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Where is the evidence? [29 July 2014]

We need a reality check, here. Hannah DID NOT die in 1749. She was named as Jonathan's widow in a 1766 legal document accepted by the court. You did not post any evidence that she died.

And you don't simply get to remove Manasseh b. 1754 from the family because he doesn't fit your little theory. His existence as Jonathan's son is recorded in his baptism, and he was one of the sons Jonathan deeded land to here, right half, "I Jonathan Powers of Lancaster ... to my Son Manasseh Powers of s'd Lancaster". He is part of the evidence your arrangement is wrong. To do this in a collaborative environment, you need to provide evidence that he doesn't belong in this family, not simply impose your belief.

If the same man married both Hannah and Bridget, then he would have two sons named Jonathan, which is unreasonable unless you can provide a death record for the first. Why is the man who married Bridget called Jonathan Jr.? Why are they living in Dunstable when a deed at the same time calls him Jonathan of Lancaster? Because the arrangement you are giving is wrong, there are two different Jonathan Powers that you are trying to combine into a single person.

The source I cited, Source:Amidon, Lee Earll. Powers Family : A Record of Walter Power of Concord, Massachusetts and Related Families mentions all this, p. 16-18. The book is still under copyright, so not available on a free website, but you can find it on heritagequest.com, probably accessible at a public library nearby or any Family History Center. It cites Worcester Probates Records, Liber 9, p. 154; Worcester Land Records in volumes 49,50, and 64. These are legal documents from the time the events happened, not some author speculating what happened 100-150 years later.

You have provided no evidence, but "had to do the math". This is not evidence. It is not about convincing you, it is about convincing others. You need to provide evidence of similar or higher quality showing that something is wrong. I would be happy to see it, and my primary goal is not to make mistakes.

It might be worth the time if you were to learn how to use the website better. Numbering systems in the name fields are discouraged (i.e., Abiel-1 Wright, etc.). You created several pages that were duplicates of existing pages that had to be merged because there should only be one page per person, one page per family. You should be able to find examples where I converted your notes to proper source citations so you can use cut and paste to follow normal conventions in future posts. --Jrich 15:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Response to notes [6 August 2014]

[removed from Person:Jonathan Powers (3) ]

"Under my history of Descendents of Deputy Governor Francis Willoughby descendents listed #4 Susanna Willoughby b. 26 May 1744 m Jonathan Powers b. 22 Jul 1744. Also under my history of William Chamberlain of Mass. Same dates m. 28 Nov 1764 Hollis Hill, NH. Jonathan's homestead was on the Dunstable near Hollis Line as stated in "Early settlers of West Dunstable." by Spaulding GR 929.274Z S73. Page 236"

Need better source citations

I have checked books.google.com, worldcat, and searched google generally and found no evidence of the existence of something called "Descendants of Deputy Governor Francis Willoughby". "William Chamberlain of Mass." is a little vaguer title, some things are close but not exact, but still I haven't found anything that is clearly that, either.

These citations need to be a little better so I can locate these sources. I don't know if these are books, magazine articles, websites? I don't know who the author is? Are these manuscripts by your mother and sister, whom you have mentioned several times? If so, more information is needed because obviously I don't have access to them. If they provide useful evidence you need to describe it, not merely assert dates and relationships, expecting others to have the same faith in them that you clearly do. Please provide more information about these sources. Any kind of an abstract of the evidence/proof they provide that you can give would be helpful, too.

This is a collaborative website where everybody can edit pages. As such, we are supposed to be trying to reach a consensus about what happened. If you want to build an inviolable memorial to your mother's and sister's work, that would be nice, but this is not the place. If you are merely trying to discover what really happened, taking advantage of resources and knowledge others may have, then this is the place. As there frequently are situations where people have different theories about poorly documented people, there are methods for reaching consensus: providing credible evidence, documenting sources, resolving contradictory evidence, and reaching a coherent conclusion. Credible evidence would require a primary basis: not Ancestral Files, nor unsourced websites, nor books that simply assert information without saying how they know. Resolving contradictory evidence means you usually have to study not only the Jonathan Powers of interest to you, but also the other Jonathan Powers of the same time period. Coherent conclusions would mean that you don't have Jonathan jumping from Lancaster to Dunstable back to Lancaster, but that the answers reflects the historical and cultural realities of the time without contradicting known facts.

I have been involved in several collaborations that have posted new information unknown to some of the participants, including one that got rid of one of my most intractable brick walls. Also, one that provided proof of a important colonial relationship never before documented anywhere that I am aware of, journals or websites. The process works.

Spaulding

So Spaulding does says Jonathan Powers' homestead was in Dunstable near the Hollis line on p. 236. He is talking about the father of John Powers, namely the Jonathan Powers who married Susanna Willoughby. He does not say this is the Jonathan Powers b. 1744.

In fact, let's not just pull one sentence out of context, but let's explore everything Spaulding says. On p. 102 he says that the Jonathan Powers who married Susanna Willoughby is the one whose first wife is Bridget. On p. 101, he identifies that Jonathan Powers as the one born in 1704. On p. 101 the son John is born 9 Mar 1765, on p. 236 the son John is born 9 Mar 1766.

So Spaulding is not describing your Jonathan Powers when he makes that statement. Personally I don't think he is describing any Jonathan Powers that ever existed, rather he is giving facts about multiple Jonathan Powers as if they were all one person. Which, one might expect intuitively, when he shows a child born in 1785 to a man he says is born in 1704. But the point of this is, most of the things he says are incompatible with your Jonathan b. 1744, such as marrying in 1750 a first wife Bridget. So if we are going to accept Spaulding as an authority, it is still a different Jonathan Powers that marries Susannah Willoughby. --Jrich 05:21, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Jonathan Powers & susanna Willoughby [7 August 2014]

Your right. I will have to take a closer look. The reason I say this is, looking into "Records of Littleton, Mass," there are, if I'm looking at this correct, a number of Jonathan's listed under Powers: (b.1704-page-403-m-1725-page 401) (b.1726-page-11,36-m-1731-page406) (b.1734-page-402,422) (b.1744-page 406) (b.1761-page-422) (b.1769-page-122-m-1804-page-244-d-1839-page 421)

Found under same records as above: Jonathan Powers, son of Daniel who married Mary or Hannah, b. 22 Jul 1744, married Anna, daughter of Jon Fletcher of Barre. Among everything else, and not being able to track down death records or buriel records, I'll have to keep searching.

Found under: Newbury, Essex, Mass: Vital Records-Image P. 383, Love Pearson b.12 Nov 1745, Newbury, Essex, Mass. Death. unknown. Daughter of Bartholomew Pearson b. 27 Jun 1697 Newbury, Essex, Mass. d. 20 May 1766, Winchendon, Worchester, Mass, husband of Love (Hutchens) Pearson.

Found under: Lancaster,Mass: Marriages Vital Records-Image P. 40; Pearson,Love and Jona Powers, 23 Jan 1767.

I'll keep looking.--Pat rayburn 18:25, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Everything found p. 398 and after are the research notes of a man named Samuel Smith. These are not town records. The town records (i.e., made contemporary to the person's lives) come on earlier pages, i.e., 11, and 36. I believe I have cited ALL of those sources on the various people's pages.... --Jrich 18:46, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

The one thing that is known [25 August 2014]

You typed yesterday:

This Jonathan Powers could not have married Love Pearson 23 Jan 1767 as this Jonathan was already married to Susanna Willoughby m. 28 Nov 1764. Their last child was born in 1787. The Deed and Will of Jonathan Powers b. 13 Oct 1704 Groton, Mass and d. Lancaster, mass bef 26 Apr 1766 gives property to this Jonathan.

Vital Records: Lancaster, Ma Image 40: Love pearson and Jona.Powers declar'd their intentions of marriage. Jany. 23: 1767. I find no children born to this couple in Lancaster or Newberry, Mass. Declar'd does not mean they were married. They could have moved out of the area.

These are faulty arguments and present no evidence that is not already known.

Genealogically speaking, sufficient evidence has not been presented that conclusively tells us which Jonathan Powers married Susannah Willoughby, though the preponderance of circumstantial evidence says she is a second wife of Jonathan b. 1726, and every other arrangement introduces contradictions that would need to be explained away, and haven't been.

The one thing that is known is that she married "Jonathan Powers of Dunstable", they had children in Dunstable from 1766 until 1787. That means your statement "this Jonathan was already married to Susanna Willoughby" is wrong, because the Jonathan Powers you are referring to was born in Lancaster, was living in Lancaster, and according to your unproven death date, died in Lancaster. So the one thing we know, proves it was not this Jonathan Powers.

I think another fact that can be stated is that no serious book identifies Jonathan Powers b. 1744 as the husband of Susannah Willoughby. The sources surveyed on Person:Jonathan Powers (1), ignoring other errors, do seem to be in general agreement that the man that married Susannah was the same man that married Bridget, presumably because, like me, they saw that the circumstantial evidence heavily favors that she was a second wife. The second wife scenario, independently from the argument above, rules out Jonathan Powers b. 1744 due to age.

A Jonathan Powers had a child in Dunstable in 1787 and he was married to Susannah Willoughby. None of these facts identify which Jonathan Powers it was. True regardless of which Jonathan Powers married Susannah Willoughby.

A Jonathan Power in 1762 deeds property to his son Jonathan. It does not indicate that either of those two had or did not name the wife of the younger Jonathan, nor name any children of the son. To the extent there is useful information here, it is that both these Jonathan's were of Lancaster in 1762, hence not of Dunstable. It actually suggests the grantee was not the man who married Susannah Willoughby.

A Jonathan Powers did declare his intentions to Love Pearson in 1767. Since no outside residence is listed in the intention, it does show that a Jonathan Powers was living in Lancaster in 1767, and was at that time unmarried. Whether they actually married, or had a child does not invalidate that observation. Since the death date of 1809 you have entered for this Jonathan is unproven, they may have moved out of the area. There appears to be not other Jonathan Powers of Lancaster in 1767 except the one born in 1744, who was living in Lancaster in 1762, when his father distributed his estate by deed, the father dying by 1766.

Unlike you, I am not descended from Jonathan Powers. It makes no difference to me which arrangement is proven, as long as it is proven. Actually it doesn't make a huge difference any way, since they are cousins. But there is a way to prove genealogical things and it is based on finding contemporary documents that show how things were, according to people that actually lived then. This is a difficult case that apparently has not been yet published by a certified genealogist. Hence there are guesses galore everywhere you look, because people hate indefinite answers. But the circumstantial evidence is fairly overwhelming, and only evidence of the most primary nature could carry the possibility of changing the conclusion. --Jrich 14:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Please respect existing data [11 September 2014]

You just erased a valid source from the page Person:Mehitable Chamberlain (2) all in order to cite a source that was already cited. Plus your citation was in a non-standard form and contained less information than the original citation. Plus citation of the marriage belongs on the Family page and was already there, so did not need to be added to the person page. This is literally, at least, a dozen times you have made this mistake. Please take the time to learn to use this website correctly so you can collaborate effectively. There are help pages on using sources such as Help:Source pages, and past errors have been corrected so you can see the proper way to do things. If you have further questions, you may wish to ask them on WeRelate Talk:Support. --Jrich 03:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Do you really mean this? [26 September 2014]

Please see Person:Jonathan Fairbanks (16). --Jrich 02:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. Got my Jonathan's mixed up.--Pat rayburn 16:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)