Place talk:Choctaw Nation, Indian Territory, United States

Rollback [25 April 2011]

A new user added a "located also in" line to this page for "Bryan, OK, 1907-present". Bryan is the present-day headquarters of the tribal organization whose corporate name is "Choctaw Nation." This has nothing whatever to do with the geographical division of Indian Territory, which comprised a dozen or more counties. See the map on the page. I've rolled it back. --Mike^Talk 22:39, 22 April 2011 (EDT)

Wikipedia "Fort McCulloch" states that the fort was located in Indian Territory within the present boundaries of Bryan County, Oklahoma.

Since I'm not allowed to list Fort McCulloch as a location how do I give a more precise location within the dozen counties comprising Indian Territory.--Rick 01:01, 23 April 2011 (EDT)

First, you certainly can create a place page for Ft. McCulloch. You can create a place page for practically anyplace, including plantations and small cemeteries, both of which I've done a number of. Second, you can "pipe" any place designation for use on a Person page if you don't want to create a separate page for it -- like "Red River, Texas, United States|Bryarly Family Cemetery, Red River County, Texas". What you put after the pipe symbol is what will be displayed. All of this is in the Help pages. It's basic wikification, common to any site that uses MediaWiki. There's nearly always a way to get the results you want, without messing up something else. I suggest you take some time and read through ALL the Help pages, even those of subjects you don't expect to need. Because you will need most of them eventually, and then you will remember that a Help page exists. --Mike^Talk 06:56, 23 April 2011 (EDT)

Thank you,

Previously when I added Forts or the like they were removed by the administrators since they are not cities or civil regions. The administrators told me that the only thing allowed that isn't a populated place are cemeteries.

I'll go ahead and add Fort McCulloch.

Rick--Rick 12:45, 23 April 2011 (EDT)

I feel that saying "You can create a place page for practically anyplace" is a bit misleading. We don't allow pages for hospitals, churches, military bases or other physical locations. We do allow pages for municipal locations (towns, counties, etc) and cemeteries. During a recent conversation here, we added historical castles and plantations to the list of allowable place pages. I've not researched Ft. McCulloch sufficiently to determine where it fits into this. --Jennifer (JBS66) 12:54, 23 April 2011 (EDT)

Jennifer, speaking as a second-generation army brat and having a longtime specialty in military history, . . . an army post is very much a "municipal location." This is especially true in the American west in the 19th century, when the army post often was the only permanent population center for several days' ride in any direction. And often it was located in a large, unorganized territory before there was a county structure. Some of these, like Fort Worth and Pittsburgh, became the nucleus of a permanent civilian community while others disappeared for various reasons -- but thousands of "regular" small towns have ceased to exist, too.

My folks were married on an army post. My brother was born on one. The relevant documents reflect that. I've created place pages for several military installations on those grounds. More than that -- someone born on a U.S. army post in Germany, say, was very much NOT "born in Germany." My brother's birth certificate was issued by the U.S. government, not the local authorities. I apparently missed the castle conversation, but I would maintain as a starting point that any permanent center of habitation and population ("permanent" meaning "intended to be permanent," i.e., not an overnight campsite) is the moral equivalent of a "municipality."

By the way, I also have found cases where someone is documented as having been born or died under an oak tree by the side of the trail -- and for those, I just pipe "by the side of the trail" under the name of the county or state. But those instances involve only one person, where an army post involves hundreds, even thousands, of people over time. And that includes quite a few civilians, too. --Mike^Talk 18:01, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

Mike, my suggestion would be to add to the discussion here. When I review recent place edits, I follow the guidelines on Help:Place pages. From all of the discussions that I have read about this over the years, we allow down to the town level (and cemeteries) to be added as a place page. Further details such as the name of the church, hospital etc are added in the detail field. Allowing pages beyond this has been considered difficult to maintain. Even getting cemeteries allowed as place pages took lengthy discussions. There are some instances where pages have been imported from Getty that are not suitable for WR's purposes, and when those are found, they are deleted. --Jennifer (JBS66) 06:43, 25 April 2011 (EDT)