Person talk:John Hays (20)

HAYS: A DIRECT PATERNAL LINEAGE [23 June 2014]

My Y-DNA ancestors left Ulster Ireland and arrived in the American colonies during the mid-1700's. They were among the "Ulster-Scots." Looking further back, prior their migration to Ulster Ireland, my direct Hays/Hay/La Haye (R-L2) lineage thrived in Scotland for nearly 800 years. Their first ancestors to arrive in Scotland came as part of the Norman Conquest, departing from the French regions of interlocking hedgerows, La Haye Normandy, eventually arriving and settling in Scotland. But, for those of us whose ancestors and their descendants have since then dwelled in Scotland, we can consider ourselves Scottish. After all, if we look deeper into my Y-DNA we will also conclude that for Millenia, prior to their inhabitants in Normandy, my direct paternal ancestors dwelled in the mountains of Northern Italy as the Alpine Celts, and most likely descended from the Western Hallstatt culture around the Black Forest of Switzerland, the place where the highest STR diversity is found for my U152/S28 SNP, which normally indicates that it is a haplotype's place of origin. So my point is, if you want to travel far enough back through our ancestors migrational path, we would all eventually have to consider ourselves non-European. So as I've stated, for nearly 800 years my direct Y-DNA (R-L2) Hays/Hay/La Haye lineage has lived and thrived in Scotland and for some time in Ulster as well. I am therefore of Scottish descent. My Y-DNA Haplogroup is R-L2. (My SNP Tests = L2+ M173+ M207+ M269+ M343+ P25+ P312+ U152+)

I am a grandson of Edwin James Hay(e)s, b. '25 Dec' 1902, Hannibal, MO.

He was the son of George Dillard Hays, b. 10 Aug 1872, Ralls, MO. 

He was the son of Andrew Collins Hays, b. 11 Apr 1835, Monroe, Tennessee. 

He was the son of George Campbell Hays, b. 7 Mar 1794, Rockbridge, VA. 

He was the son of Charles John Hays, b. 24 Aug 1752, Augusta, VA. 

He was the son of Andrew Hays, b. abt 1716, Bangor, Ulster, Ireland. 

He was the son of John Hays, b. abt 1674, Scotland. 

He was the son of Andrew Hays, b. abt 1650, Scotland.

Etc, etc, etc, ...

As shown above, I am a direct descendant of the Ulsterman AKA Ulster-Scot, John Hays (1674-1751) who married Rebecca (1680-1752) in the year 1715 in the Province of Ulster, Ireland. In 1740 they immigrated from Ulster to Augusta Virginia, along with their adult children.  This John & Rebecca Hays built their plantation just two miles north of Rockbridge Baths, where Hays Creek and Moffett's Creek ran together. It was there on a natural mill site, that John Hays built the first fulling mill in what later become Rockbridge County (est. 1778). He died in the early part of 1751 leaving a last will & testament.  On 29 May 1751, the Augusta justice, William Lusk "ordered that a road be cleared from Hays' Fulling Mill to Timber Ridge Meeting House" (Timber Ridge Presbyterian Church). Then Moffett's Creek was changed to Hays Creek and Hays Creek became Walker Creek, thus the original mill site along with the John Hays family settlement, is located on what today is known as Walker Creek, along East Field Road, Route 731.

Military records show that the sons and grandsons of John Hays (1674-1751) fought for our freedom in the American War of Independence and in the War of 1812. His Hays descendants were many and soon they spread from Virginia to Tennessee and Kentucky, then into Missouri, Iowa and further into the Western United States. My name is Gene Hays and as I stated above, I am a direct descendant of this Ulsterman, John Hays. In terms of my genetics (Y-DNA), I am in the R-L2 Haplogroup, as will be all proven direct male descendants of this John Hays (1674-1751).

Any Hay, Hays, or Hayes male who comes from the same direct paternal lineage as "the Ulsterman" John Hays (1674-1751), and who has ordered the Y-DNA67 test (and the L2 SNP) at www.FTDNA.com will prove to be of the haplogroup "R-L2" and will also most likely have a value of 13 at DYS492, which is fairly unique for us as non-Frisian descendants. Anyone interested in comparing all 67 markers can visit Family Tree DNA and view the results of three (3) of his direct descendants, all living today. In order to view the DNA test results of these three currently known direct descendants of John & Rebecca Hays (married 1715), visit www.ftdna.com/public/hay and click on the "Y-DNA Results" link. Their kit numbers are 110656, 132481, and N47554. The number of (Ulsterman) John Hays descendants who have joined this DNA research is likely to increase. (Note that Andrew Hays, b. 1716 was one of John & Rebecca Hays' sons.

To view the old map of the Hays family in Borden Tract

A History of Rockbridge County, Virginia

AUGUSTA COUNTY ROAD ORDERS 1745-1769

Timber Ridge Presbyterian Meeting House

Valley Conservation Council

Timber Ridge Presbyterian Church, 73 Sam Houston Way, Lexington, VA 24450

Google Maps Current Map from John Hays family settlement, East Field Road, Route 731, to current Timber Ridge Presbyterian Church

National Register of Historic Places
--Hays 23:14, 2 November 2009 (EST)

John Hays Last Will and Testament: Use of "Nephew" [23 June 2014]

In the summary for John Hays, the following is written:

In his 1750 will John identified both a John Hays as his son, and also a John Hays, Jr as a nephew. Clearly "John Jr" is the son of John's brother, and that brother could be Patrick, but direct confirmation of that has not been found.

In the LW&T of John Hays he names several "nephews". The first reference is made in the 6th bequeath item where he names nephew John Hays, Jr. and nephew Rebecca Hays daughter to my son John. The next reference is in the 8th item to nephew Rebecky Guines(?)then nephew Robert Lusk in the 9th bequeath; and finally to nephew James Hays, son of my son James Hays, deceased.

It's clear, based on the context, that John Hays is referencing his grandchildren and not actually nephews as we understand the term today. An explanation for this reference can be found in "THE RESEARCHER'S GUIDE TO AMERICAN GENEALOGY" by Val D. Greenwood published 1973, Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Baltimore, MD.

"The terms 'niece' and 'nephew' ... can cause confusion in early records. They did not always have the same connotations that we attach to them. Niece derives from the Latin term Neptis and nephew from the Latin term Nepos, which, when translated, actually mean granddaughter and grandson, respectively. In early American records this usage is rarely found but certainly not unknown...."

John also uses the term to describe both male and female family members which is another clue that he didn't mean the use of nephew as we understand it today. I received this information from a professional genealogist in SW Virginia who received it from Mary Kegley, a well-known research in Virginia.

--motohays 20:50, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Motohays. This article is currently evolving, primarily with the intent of documenting what is known about Johns life events, and what can be substantiated through original source documentation. I'm aware of the difference in interpretation of the meaning of "nephew", though this is one of the few instances where I've encountered the distinction in my personal work. It may well be that John is infact referring to the children of his sons and daughters, though that interpretation is not entirely consistent with his will. For example, he refers to Robert Lusk as a nephew. Lusk might be the husband of one of his granddaughters. Certainly some genealogists show him to the soninlaw of Andrew son of John. I've not looked closely enough at this to be certain that this is the case. Documentation of many of the lineages for this line is rather weak, and that's a problem for a later date---though I probably won't personally pursue that.

In anycase, I hadn't seen your previous comments…most articles are never commented on, so unless you're actively working a page those don't come to your attention unless you specifically choose to look at the talk page. In this case, you commented today, and I received notification of your comment. Which led me to the talk page, which in turn showed me your previous comments as User:Hays (Checking the contributions and it looks like User:Motohays and User:Hays are indeed the same person. If not, please correct me.

From your previous comments its seems likely that you are owner of the kit in the FTDNA Hays YDNA project, that traces descent to William de la Haya (1120-1170). There's a Wikipedia article for him at WIkipedia:William II de Haya. It would be interesting to see the documentary basis for tracing the connection from William de la Haya to John Hays of Old Augusta. Given the sparsity of documentation in the 1600 family trees available to me on Ancestry, for John Hays d1750/51=Rebecca, even identifying his father with original source documentation seems to be difficult. If you have that documentation I would be very happy to see it. Also, the 30 Nov 1674 DOB cited by most genealogists needs to be supported with original source documentation. While I'm not questioning it, I'll note that if accurate, John did not make his oath of importation until he was 66, which might seem to be a rather late age to have a more or less intact nuclear family of six. In any case documentation for that fact is needed. The precise date 30 Nov 1674 probably implies that there is in fact an underlying original source document for the fact. We need to know what that document is.

Currently four of the kits in the Hays YDNA project identify John Hays or Patrick Hays as their earliest ancestor. They don't, as a rule identify which son they descend through, so the earliest common patriarch might be someone later than John. None the less, I suspect that most of the kits shown here

probably descend from either John or Patrick, one way or another. Its also possible that there is another kinsmen to John and Patrick, though which some of these kits might also descend from, pushing the common ancestor back a bit. In any case, all of the kits in the project show a close similarity to each other in terms of their YDNA haplotype. I suspect that the common ancestor, if not John or Patrick, lies relatively close to them, but a generation or two further back. In any case, all of the kits shown in the above figure share a relatively recent common ancestor, probably living + or minus a generation or two from John Hays.

____ Please note the edits I've made to your earlier comment. Note in particular the use of the ":" in the list of links you provided. This results in an indent beginning on the next line. Otherwise, the materials on separate lines run together.

Note also the construction that makes those links "live". In brief placing a single [ in front of the link, and a single ] at its end creates a live link. adding a blank space after the link, plus some text, makes the link read as the given text, rather than as a simple url. This makes for a neater presentation, as well as eliminating the need to cut and paste the url.

Q 22:54, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Hays and Motohays are two separate people. I am Motohays (Mark Allan Hays). I believe I know the identity of the user "Hays" because I recognize the text that was left in the Talk page. I believe they are one of my "genetic cousins" whose YDNA matches mine on the Family Tree DNA site. In your image (from FTDNA?) I am kit B3409. I contacted you recently about helping with the HAYS clan of Virginia, Tennessee, Missouri (etc).

Thank you for the correction. I will adjust accordingly. Q 02:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I have absolute proof of my HAYS lineage back to my 4th GGF, Person:William Hays (39) who died in present-day Smyth Co., Virginia in 1831 and settled in the Rich Valley on the north fork of the Holston River sometime before 1769(per deposition given in a land dispute court case). I am connected to the original emigrant John solely from the YDNA-67 tests which means that I could also descend from one of Patrick's children. All my genetic cousins trace their lineage to these two men. I have no records of William's parentage however.

Your William fits into the Southwest Virginia portion of the Tapestry. While my current focus is on the Hays in Old Augusta, I will eventually work on Hay's in SW VA---though I will probably turn to the Hay's in Old Chester before I get to that. I've made some adjustments to William (39), so that the images you've uploaded display at a size where they can be more easily read. There are probably other things that would be helpful, but I'm not going to be able to do much more with his page at the present. Eventually, the aim is to tray all of the known persons with the "Hays" surname in the Tapestry area up to about 1800. Hopefuly, that will enable us to better identify and understand the relationships between these people, but that kind of effort takes a fair bit of time. I appreciate the materials you've placed on WeRelate, as it allows us to move that much faster with the project.

There is an unproven theory that my William was the son of Person:John Hays (21), the son of the original emigrant John, due to the fact that baptism records of Reverend John Craig of Tinkling Spring indicate that he baptized John Hays'(21) children: John Hays(34) and Rebecca Hays(3). My William Hays had his land immediately adjacent to a John Hays who was slightly older than William. There is another plantation connected to land of John and William which was surveyed for a William "Buckeye Billy" Richardson. Mr. Richardson married a Rebecca Hays who, according to said theory, was sister to John and William. My William was born about 1753; so, it would make sense that he was not named in his grandpa's will as were John and Rebecca.

By the way, I agree with you on the DOB of John. It is very dubious and I consider it incorrect. I'm not aware of any doubt concerning the reference to "nephew" in the LW&T of John. Mary Kegley provided the information that I posted. She was consulted by my genealogist in Wytheville who has worked with Mrs. Kegley on, as I understand it, a daily basis for many years (decades?). Anyway, there was no doubt in their minds; but, I understand and appreciate your strict logic as concerns facts versus opinions and theories. The work that has been completed by you and Delijim (and other I'm sure) is very impressive and some of the complicated HAYS relationships have been correctly listed. On a side note, Mary and my genealogist clued me into the Julian vs. Gregorian calendar issue as it relates to the LW&T of John Hays. I wrote up the explanation when I posted the transcription and photocopy of the original LW&T record to my Ancestry.com family tree. It's funny to see that the words have been changed in some cases and posted in different places.

It is good to know the source of your information on the use of the term "nephew".

Finally, I have communicated with almost all of my YDNA matches and none have pointed to or provided any proof of lineage before John Hays. As far as I know and believe, the connection to William de la Haya is not proven and is just part of the general lore of the HAYS clan that is believed to have come from the Cotentin Penninsula in Normandy. Additionally, none of these fellow HAYS researchers have provided any information on the trans-Atlantic passage of John or Patrick.

That is very good to know---and to be blunt, something I expected was the case. Personally, I rarely get excited about "deep lineages"---at least until the more recent connections have been documented. I imagine that somewhere there is a documentary trace for William de la Haya, but for the moment, I'm concerned only with identifying Johns parents and his relationship to Patrick. In part, I'm trying to frame the questions that need to be answered for their history.

I will have to put this down for a few days, but when I return to the subject later in the week, I'll work to finish off what I've started on John. Then turn to Patrick. Patricks supposed relocation to Lancaster County suggests that he and John had family in that area, and there may be clues to their history prior to 1740 in the PA records. There are definitely Hays in that area, using the same naming traditions which is a useful sign.

Finally, you may be interested in joining the Tapestry Mailing list. Once I've a decent grounding on John (20), I will start posting there. Its where most of my Tapestry work is discussed, and I'll probably be spending at least some time on the Hays before turning to other matters. It also makes for a useful forum for folks interested in specific lines in this broad area. Usually, the discussion focuses on one lineage or another for awhile, and then shifts to something else. Some folks join for awhile, and then quit. Others stay for the long term. Q 02:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Q 02:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

--motohays 00:35, 24 June 2014 (UTC)